Continued from introductions

<host 1> WELCOME EVERYONE TO TODAY'S SPECIAL CHAT: From Lovers of Women to the Lovers of Men ! Welcome ladies and gents! Slash is a wonderful all-inclusive hobby for us all. But mainly, having to do with intimate, and often loving relationships between two men. Today we examine the issue of heterosexual men and lesbian women, wo write so lovingly on this subject. We are interested in the motivations, the muses, the benefit that the writers of m/m slash derive from this pursuit. Let us begin with our invited guests, and let me thank them profusely for their co-operation. I am sure we are all just thrilled to have them here. * Mik * Katherine * frogdoggie * ALR - please introduce yourself to your adoring audience :)
<frogdoggi> Greetings to all of you.
<ALR> Hallo hallo.
<MJ> Okay, hi everybody!
<MJ> I'm just plain old MJ for my real initials.
ALR hides under the podium.
<frogdoggi> So...questions? I'm primed here. Primed and ready, willing and able.
<MJ> okay, folks, we're ready to rock...

<HOST 4> Here's THE question... : WHY do you write m/m slash?:-) What makes you write it, where do you get your inspirations?
<Katherine> Oooh, the 64 million dollar question!
<frogdoggi> The big question.
<MJ> We watch XF. What more inspiration do we need?
MJ admires pic of Walter
<frogdoggi> I write it for several reasons...
<frogdoggi> want to know in detail or...synopsis?
<Katherine> detail!
<guest 5> ooh, details, please...
<frogdoggi> First of all - I like men. ROFL. I mean I consider myself bisexual but in Het relationship right now.
<frogdoggi> So, I've had relationships with men and when I started writing fic I gravitated to slash for that reason.
<MJ> Okay, makes sense to me.
<frogdoggi> Also... my brother was gay and I kind of write the M/SK stories as a homage to him and his partner.
<frogdoggi> So those are a couple of the reasons.
<GUEST 2> what happend to your brother
<frogdoggi> My brother died of AIDs.
<Guest 3> That's one of the best reasons I ever heard.
<GUEST 2> oh shit I am sorry Frogdoggi
GUEST 2 hugs frogdoggie
<frogdoggi> No worries - I cope with it. Thanks for the hug.
<guest 4> sorry to hear, did he know you wrote stories?
<frogdoggi> One way I cope with it is by honoring his memory in my stories.
<GUEST 2> that is great
<Host 2> Very nice, Frogdoggi, very nice!
<frogdoggi> And also the unbelievabley hot sex I had with the man I was with before I met my wife. ROFL.
<guest 5> froggi, you write a Wonderful Skinner! are you more of a Skinnerphile than an Mulderist?
<frogdoggi> No, he died before I started writing fic, but he was a big fan of the X-Files.
<frogdoggi> Skinnerphile most definitely.
<guest 6> But I think Frogdoggi's Mulder is very good..
<frogdoggi> In fact...pssst....the guy I has the relationship was very much like Skinner physically.
<guest 5> oooh! I'm SOO OOO JEALOUS!!!!
<MJ> aha!
<Guest 3> Ohhh. :)))
<frogdoggi> So, seeing that show was like a walk down memory lane. ROFL.
<guest 5> envy envy envy
<frogdoggi> I do relate to some of Mulder's mannerisms.
<frogdoggi> So, I guess I can relate to him as well.
<Guest 7> Frogdoggi, if your fic sex scenes are a mirror of your previous relationship,
<guest 5> some of mulder's fidgets are very sex
<guest 5> sexy, I mean
<frogdoggi> ROARING ROFL. Guest 7, that's so good - and also a wonderful compliment. thank you.
<Guest 7> Mind you, I'd have to change my warddrobe a bit...maybe. <g>
<Guest 7> which is a reflection of my style of clothing...not yours :-)

<HOST 4> MJ... what made you do the deed?
<frogdoggi> Yeah, MJ, tell us.
<MJ> The easy answer is, I stumbeld across slash and decided if some of the people I was reading back then could do it, I could do better.
<frogdoggi> Interesting MJ.
<MJ> More complicated, because nothing is ever easy --
<GUEST 2> Ilove your fic MJ
<MJ> Reverse of Frogdoggi. I'm formerly married, though I identified as lesbian prior to that.
<frogdoggi> MJ does a great job of getting it right, most defiintely.
Guest 7 agrees with GUEST 2 :-)
<MJ> And -- confession -- my exhusband still has hair but it's going -- yeah, a younger model Skinnerclone.
<MJ> AND military, to boot.
<frogdoggi> ROFL, a woman of taste is MJ.
<guest 5> more envy envy envy
<MJ> We met in law school. But enough about him, because Walter is definitely a personality improvement.
<HOST 4> As you are a man of taste, Frogdoggi... it's interesting you both had "your private Skinner" in your life:-)
<Mik> I'm starting to think it's a requirement and all.
<MJ> I know -- I didn't realize it for some time.
<frogdoggi> I was flabbergasted the first time I watched the X-Files. Really because it was too funny.
<MJ> But although I've only been involved with women since, and I really identify more strongly as lesbian, I hardly hate guys.
<MJ> Although I have a photo of DD that makes him look EXACTLY like kdlang.
<Katherine> i'd like to see that...
<frogdoggi> DD is KD Lang. ROFL.
<guest 1-> LOL
<frogdoggi> ROFL
<MJ> And that acounts for my vague DD crush. I think he'd make a WONDERFUL dyke.
<frogdoggi> He's very attractive in drag.
<MJ> Shh! Don't tell!
<frogdoggi> But I can't go there.
<HOST 4> MJ, I am afraid you'll have to mail that pic out to everybody!!
<host 1> Twinpeaks was a hoot.
<Katherine> Like Eddie Izzard -- a lesbian trapped in a man's body.
<frogdoggi> Not Twinpeaks drag - I'm talking about the pic of him I have on my web site.
<frogdoggi> on the What's new page.
<frogdoggi> ROFL
<GUEST 2> DD the drag queen in TP
<guest 6> In a way I agree with MJ, Mulder would make a great woman.
<frogdoggi> Real drag.
<MJ> But hereyou go for my final thought. I just hate hetfic!

<guest 4> group question:did anybody 'write' prior to x files fanfic?
<MJ> I read/write m/m slash because I prefer gay smut to het.
<frogdoggi> I wrote non-fiction before I wrote fic.
<frogdoggi> Movie review and such.
<MJ> Any fandom (I write 3 others too).
<Katherine> I've been writing since I was able to pick up a pencil.
<MJ> Hetsex always strikes me as so... unnatural.
Katherine agrees with MJ
<MJ> I've written since I was a kid.
<frogdoggi> Well I can hardly say Het sex seems unnatural. ROFL.
<MJ> Love writing. My mother weas an editor.
<frogdoggi> I mean...that's where things are at for me now.
<guest 6> I think hetsex can be beautiful both in writing and in RL depending on who's doing it.
<frogdoggi> Good point Guest 6
<frogdoggi> I just enjoy Sex. ROFL. I mean seriously
<<guest 6> Precisely, MJ.
<frogdoggi> I'm such a damn hedonist I guess.
<frogdoggi> It's the erotica I enjoy.
<frogdoggi> The sensuality.
<frogdoggi> Gender is of no consequence I guess.
HOST 4 nods at Frogdoggi:-)
<guest 6> I agree with Frogdoggi.
<guest 5> if the two people really want to do it and it comes across in the story, gender doesn't matter
<ALR> for some.
<guest 5> i'll take well-written slash over msr anyday
<Katherine> For me, hetsmut makes me gag, no matter who it is.
<MJ> I don't have that reaction, I wish I did sometimes. But I have a been there, done that, don't wanna go back cause I didn't like it that mmuch thing.
<guest 5> i'll take silly slash over msr anyday
<guest 5> i'll take dumbslash over msr anyday!
<MJ> Oh, MSR is a whole disgusting subject unto itself.
<frogdoggi> Well let's face it...some people prefer the same gender and that's as it should be for them.
Katherine spits
<Guest 7> One thing I've noticed about slash fic - there may be less of it in comparison, but the quality of writing is more consistent - with what I've read anyway
<Katherine> yeurchh...MSR!
<frogdoggi> Right now I prefer my wife. I lust for her 24/7.
<frogdoggi> There are a lot of excellent slash fic writers, yes.
<guest 5> but I'f Scully became available,
<frogdoggi> If Scully became available and I was marrried to June still? I wouldn't cross the street to even go there.
<frogdoggi> I am by nature, monogomous.
<frogdoggi> I guess.
<frogdoggi> And I respect my wife too much to even think that way.
<Katherine> good for you, Frogdoggi!
<MJ> Good for you, Frogdoggi!
<frogdoggi> But nothing says we can't fantasize and have some fun doing it. ROFL.
Katherine grins
<GUEST 2> Grat Frogdoggi!
<guest 5> my husband would probably ask to join....
<guest 5> but you're right; a healthy fantasy life is wonderful!
<guest 6> Is that what this is about anyway? Healthy fantasy?
<Katherine> Okay, anyway...moving qswiftly on:
<MJ> My partner's a redhead, I don't need Scully
<guest 5> more envy...
<Katherine> I didn't start with m/m slash. At the beginning I only read the f/f stuff.
<frogdoggi> yes, right Guest 6. I mean I get off on fantasizing all sorts of things - slash fic is part of that for both my wife and myself.
<guest 5> frogdoggie, that's cool that you can share with your wife
<guest 5> my husband knows that i read slash
<guest 5> he's read some, too. he likes it. :-0

<MJ> You go, Katherine. I started with f/f too.
<Katherine> But there was much more m/m around.
<Katherine> My first fandom was Star Trek: voyager, so I naturally moved towards P/K
<Katherine> because I'd thought from the start that those two were meant for each other...:)
<Katherine> But I used to skip the sex scenes.
<guest 5> P/K are cute together, aren't they?
<Guest 3> Why?
<Katherine> I dunno...they kind of bored me.
Katherine shrugs
<guest 1-> they are beautiful together;)
<frogdoggi> Skipped the sex scenes?
<frogdoggi> Oh m/m sex bored you at first?
<guest 4> there's not much story left w/o the sex scenes sometimes
<Katherine> I think part of that was that the quality of the writing would drop off as soon as the two boys started shagging.
<Host 3> Too much slot a into slot b, Katherine?
<Katherine> But then I started reading torch's stuff....
<Katherine> nuff said.
<guest 5> YES! Torch is awesome!!!!!
<frogdoggi> The only slash I read and write is X-Files...because really I am into the Skinner idea - as is my wife.
<guest 5> GReat sex, detailed stories, exquisite characterization....
<guest 5> And a REALISTIC SCULLY!
<frogdoggi> I think you have to have some plot.
<Katherine> Yes, guest 5, exactly.
<frogdoggi> with the smut.
<frogdoggi> ROFL
<frogdoggi> The best writers are able to do that.
<guest 6> Well, yes Frogdoggi
<guest 6> LOL
<Katherine> But it never even occurred to me that XF was slashable until I read torch's stuff.
<MJ> Have to agree -- the PWP has never thrilled me
<frogdoggi> Also, the good ones get the sex right. ROFL. Thank you guest 6
<HOST 4> Cake for the icing, yes!
<Katherine> Although I'd always been a closet Ratgirl.
<Katherine> PWP's can be fun, tho...
<MJ> Funnier yet, Katherine. I never realized XF slash till I read it.
<Host 2> If they are quirky, I like em.
<MJ> Now het XF makes no sense to me plotwise.
<guest 5> shippers are always talking about how they see msr in everything
<guest 5> I just don't see it!
<Katherine> When I saw Arcadia, I was amazed that they thought it was shippy.
<MJ> Maybe -- just maybe -- pre-abduction. But it's downhill from there.
<frogdoggi> I write MSR as well...and I like it. So...I can't knock it at all.
<Katherine> fanfic is a different thing than the show, tho.
<Guest 3> That's what so boring to me about the 6th season; all those hints. A heaven for shippers but I just yawn.
<MJ> Attraction, irritation, then finally friends -- but I don't see actual MSR in canon
<guest 5> blech
<guest 6> Neither can I, Frogdoggi. I see MSR in some stuff, but I equally see sexual tension between Mulder and Skinner.
<Guest 3> That's always so, Katherine.
<guest 5> Were Mulder and Skinner even in the same room for more than a minute in S6?
<Katherine> SR819. Very MSky.
<Guest 3> Yes, in S.R.8 whatever.
<MJ> Yes, Katherine.
<host 1> It's overdone, no doubt. CC is teasing the shippers on and off - losing ground to the real good stories we used to see in the earlier season
Host 3 nods, yep SR819
<frogdoggi> The problem with most MSR is they aren't getting the relationship right anyway - the sex is overly romantic, perfect and too accomplished.
<ALR> all the tension between Mulder and Scully in eps comes off as forced and extraneous, to me.
<guest 6> That's a HUGE problem.
<MJ> Although several of us have scented slash in Field Trip
<frogdoggi> Slash can have the same problems.
<Guest 3> I agree.

<frogdoggi> Some slash is laughable.
<Mik> Really?
<guest 6> You have to wonder if some of the author's actually have had sex in the last 6 months and even know what's happening.
<Mik> Frogdoggi, imagine that!
<frogdoggi> I mean the authors have so overfeminized the men you want to laugh you ass off.
<guest 6> Too right, Frogdoggi.
<MJ> Thank you, Frogdoggi!
<frogdoggi> Yes, good point Guest 6
<Katherine> Oh, I know. Or when Mulder is protrayed as Mr Sensitive.
<guest 5> Macho!Skinner and Macho!Mulder are good things.
<Katherine> which he most emphatically is not.
<guest 5> they don't have to be that way all the time
<guest 4> i wonder how guys read slash stories written by het women
<guest 5> But they're MEN!!!
<frogdoggi> Yes, they are men, they aren't Het women.
<frogdoggi> And some authors write them as such.
<ALR> actually - I mean, I don't know about the reaction to newer slash, but the gay male reaction to the TrekSmut was generally positive.
<frogdoggi> They don't even get the plumbing right.
<MJ> Well, Guest 4, how about written by lesbians?
<frogdoggi> And they don't understand what it's like between too men in bed.
Host 3 grins
Katherine has a confession to make
<MJ> I have less experience with men than a het woman does, really...
<guest 5> I hate TooNeedy!Mulder. Mulder has a backbone, guys.
<HOST 4> The good ones don't fortunately... that includes lasbians, MJ:-)
<frogdoggi> Yes, Guest 7 - I detest that too.
<Katherine> I have never written a m/m sex scene and I don't think I ever will.
<guest 6> I can't write one either, simply because I don't think I have the knowledge to do it...
<guest 6> But I sure like what I read.
<Katherine> exactly.
<guest 5> There's so little F/F that we need you there, Katherine....
<frogdoggi> Katherine, actually that's a laudable thing to say...because there are some slash authors who should be saying the same thing.
<ALR> I will never understand, and I am so utterly going to get thwapped for this, but why it is women, straight and lesbian, can write gay male sex, and men...well...I'm not saying they can't write f/f, because a lot out there do, and do it well. but mostly...
<HOST 4> Good slash does not need to include explicit sex sxenes, IMHO.
<MJ> I came out in a crowd of gay men. So I had a lot of exposure to gay porn.
<MJ> Written, vid, photos, yada
<guest 5> I'd like to write a m/m scene one day, but I'm afraid that I'd get it so totally wrong that I'd get laughed at
<frogdoggi> ALR - I wouldn't attempt f/f slash - I don't have the experience.
<frogdoggi> I know I wouldn't get it right.
<Katherine> There are a lot of people who can write incredibly hot sex that I could never compete with.
<ALR> but I've never had a gay male experience, obviously, and I think I get it right. I mean, it is possible.
<Guest 10> That's what betas are for, guest 5 <g>
<MJ> Oddly -- we'll get here I'm sure -- I'm more comfy with m/m than I am woith f/f.
<ALR> me too, MJ
<Katherine> And on the other hand there are a lot of people who write really terrinble sex....
<MJ> Dyke who can't write dykesmut. Go figure.
<guest 5> But I'm not so worried about the sex as I am the relationship...
<Katherine> Curiouser and curiouser...
<Guest 10> I was terrified to right m/m sex for a lont time. And when I finally did, I had Te and Imajiru looking over my shoulder to make sure I got it right.
<Guest 10> long, rather
<guest 5> I know that men react differently in relationships than women do...
<ALR> I think because, well, f/f is just daily life, MJ. part of the draw is from the exploration of something different...
<guest 6> I think a story is better if you get the relationship wound in it really well, the sex is kinda good mind candy...gives you a warm glow
<MJ> I use the best writers I know for writing beta, and gay men I know for smut beta.
<Katherine> the prospect of writing m/m sex kind of scares me.
<MJ> good point, ALR
<frogdoggi> Because yes, the relationship is going to be different between two men.
<Guest 7> Agreed guest 5...I like the sex and all ;-) but I love reading about the relationship...dialogue

<frogdoggi> Mik has done a really good job of bringing that out in his stories.
<Guest 10> Yeah, relationship matters much more to me than the sex.
<frogdoggi> Some of the Same Game stuff is just what you would see.
<Mik> Well, thanks, frere.
<guest 5> Same Game is a great series. It seems so realistic
<frogdoggi> Men don't talk about the relationship as much.
<frogdoggi> They do rather than discuss.
<guest 5> Mulder and SKinner are both so true to themselves.
<MJ> Same Game is wonderful.
<Mik> Ta.
<Mik> I blush.
<guest 6> The Same Game series has given me a lOT of warm feelings.
<guest 5> They SOUND like themselves, which I think some writers don't always capture
<frogdoggi> You show your love...
Host 3 nods
<guest 4> enjoyed 'Same Game', awaiting next chapters
<Host 3> Exaclty
<Guest 3> But that's what I like about slash, guest 5. Men who DO talk about relationship.
<guest 6> Yes, Guest 8's M/Sk is very realistic.
<guest 6> Good point Frogdoggi about showing love.
<Katherine> But Mulder's not a "let's sit down and talk about it" kind of guy.
<MJ> For me, Guest 3, as a slashwriter... keeping the characters authentic is important.
<guest 5> Guest 3, mee too. But sometimes Weepy!Mulder in a few of the stories I've read has been too much for me...
Katherine nods
<Guest 3> A lot of men aren't. RThat's what I really hate about them.
<MJ> Mulder as a caring, communicative kind of guy isn't character.
<frogdoggi> Many women don't understand men's inner psyche any better than men understand women...so for me a lot of women written m/m slash misses the point.
<frogdoggi> Misses the mark on characterization I mean.
<Guest 10> Weepy!Mulder and Infantilized!Mulder. Just wrong, on so many levels.
Katherine shudders
<Guest 3> It doesn't have to be Weepy!
<guest 11> I prefer a slash story that combines a little discussion of the relationship with intimate action
<guest 6> I think that comes from trying to boil the character down too much.
<ALR> I think that accuracy - make them be real men, or whatever - is not the point...
<ALR> I mean
<guest 6> Mulder is a very complex character and he's hard to get right.
<MJ> Mulder's a "I did that for you" kind of guy, canonwise. For Scully and Skinner.
<frogdoggi> Men do cry...it's just that the social pressure not to do it is so strong it's pretty hard to do it.
<guest 6> But he's good to get hard.
<Guest 7> For me, a lot of it depends on the setup... if the circumstances/plot/whatever give credence to the character's reactions - weepy or not - I can accept it
<guest 11> me too, Guest 7. motivation is everything
<frogdoggi> ALR..making them real men is not the point? Then what is the point?
<ALR> in fact, I suspect that for a lot of women the thrill is in being able to read and write about men who DO discuss things, for example.
<Katherine> Thar applies to everything, Guest 7, but sometimes the author doesn't make the effort.
<frogdoggi> Just too good looking guys fucking?
<Guest 10> We've *seen* Mulder cry - it does happen. It just doesn't happen every time he breathes.
<frogdoggi> Ah...so it's all fantasy then? ROFL.
<frogdoggi> sorry...
<Host 3> good point
<Guest 7> Yeah...which is why I guess PWP's don't interest me that much. I want to see the setup.
<Katherine> Henry Jenkins says slash is about creating a utopian version of masculinity.
<frogdoggi> I'm trying to understand this too - because I approach the subject from a different direction.
<MJ> Okay, ladies. Confession re this -- I write for the men who read me.
<Guest 3> When a MAN finally meets The One he might loose a little of this macho do.
<frogdoggi> Ah...women creating a utopian version of the way they would like men to be?
<Katherine> Yes.
<guest 6> I think that happens alot Frogdoggi
<Guest 10> I could see that.
<Guest 3> Yep.
<frogdoggi> I can see that, yes.
<ALR> ideas about how slash is a way for women to enjoy reading/writing about equal sexual relationships, where both partners are *people*, have been tossed around for a long time.
<frogdoggi> But you know what?
<Katherine> Not that they're not still men, but that they don't have the same hangups a lot of men do.
<MJ> One comment from a male reader that I got it right is worth a lot to me.
<ALR> because female characters are rarely, if ever, portrayed as equals, or portrayed accurately. In fiction, a man is a person and a woman is a chick.
<frogdoggi> That's a self defeating premise.
<Katherine> I don't think so.
<MJ> I have no personal interest in changing the m/f dynamic so I don't recreate men.
<ALR> that's how it comes across to some, I mean.
<Guest 3> I heard the rumor that that's the reason some gay men like slash written by women.
<Katherine> I think it's all about the potential in m/m realationships.
<MJ> The main thing I hear from gay men abnout liking f-written slash is that they enjoy the relationship which is irrelevant in gay porn --
<frogdoggi> Well I think men can learn to overcome the crushing socialization they're subjected to all their lives and learn to be better human beings...
<Guest 3> THat's what I heard too.
<Host 2> Exactlly
<MJ> BUT then they tell me that they find a lot of the description is way out of their experience
<ALR> of course, frog. absolutely.
<Guest 12> If I may interject here - I have a very caring man for a husband, and i model my men on him
<frogdoggi> Better communicators, in and out of the bedroom...
<HOST 4> Absolutely right, MJ.
<frogdoggi> They need to work with their partners to get there.
<guest 6> Exactly Frogdoggi.
<Katherine> Yes, and maybe that's what slash is about -- about characters who *do* that work.
<MJ> I model my characters on themselves. If I want them to get communnicative, I need a plot reason.
<Katherine> Well, that makes sense in XF slash.
<guest 6> There's also the notion that it's fiction and it doesn't HAVE to be social commentary.
Katherine thinks about the safe-sex thing
<MJ> The only slash I write where the original modles already communicate is Sentinel. Blair's that type.
<ALR> you know, I think that in the end, accuracy, motivations, all that, takes a backseat to a good story. if someone somewhere gets off on it, or is moved by it, or just goes 'hey, wow, niftykeen', then everything else is irrelevant.
<Guest 3> But when it's too much out of character it doesn't make sense any more..
<guest 6> Sometimes a story is just popcorn for the brain and anything goes.
<guest 6> Agreed, Guest 3.
<frogdoggi> I'm with guest 6 and ALR. and Guest 3. Those are all good points.
<guest 5> (homer simpson) mmmm...popcorn (/homer simpson)
Guest 7 wonders if I'd ever say "niftykeen" ALR <G>
<host 1> character digging and hot sex does it for me. It must be believable, in my personal pov of the characters

Continue to part two of the logs