<Host1> Okay, time for a new question:what makes you write unhappy endings

<Viridian5> For me, that's how the story *goes*

<JCSun> Unhappy endings?

<Viridian5> necessity

<JCSun> ...Unhappy endings occur when the story dictates it.

<Alicia> Angst is *good.* (Not that I've written any unhappy endings ... yet.)

<Viridian5> Does anyone think I *liked* torturing Danny and Fox? I didn't

<Te> I've written exactly one unhappy ending and it ripped my soul out.

<MJ> Me? Virtually nothing. I lve weepers but I can't writye 'em. I have one unhappy ending (sort of) M/K I'm writing now

<JCSun> Happiness in a story where M/K beating each other senseless is...stupid.

<Viridian5> Even my happy endings have shadows

* Guest7 doesn't like unhappy endings :(

<Guest13> well, looks like everyone's back again

<MJ> and it's not THAT unhappy, just not a "and they all lived..." ending

<JCSun> ...has a happy-ending quota. No more than one for so many K of vignettes.

<JCSun> Guest7, what don't you like about unhappy endings?

<Guest7> they make me sad

<MJ> JiM: Sometimes unhappy endings make more sense. The characters aren't always the most cheerful.

<Viridian5> right

<JCSun> Ah. Emotional investment.

<MJ> JiM: if the main character has grown or has learned something, is it really unhappy?

<Guest10> I don't like to see "my heroes" die, either. Let them suffer like hell, but not die. Just don't like it.

<Viridian5> Tacking on a happy ending doesn't work

<DMilan> I can't bring myself to write an unhappy ending, so I just put lots of angst in the story to make up for my weakness.

<JCSun> Happiness is weakness.

<Viridian5> I still can't write a character death story I've had in my head for months

<JCSun> You must eradicate the weakness, my son.

<MJ> Angst good, crying at end bad.

<Guest7> happiness can be strength, to overcome the dar shadows

<Drovar> DMilan: that's what I like, lots of angst on the way, but I want my happy ending dammit!

<MJ> Character death -- ouch

<JCSun> ...Punk M once told methat she wasn't happiness unless she killed Mulder once a week.

<Viridian5> Happiness is a temporary chemical imbalance of the mind, JC?

<DMilan> Yes - a fellow angster.

<MJ> Alas, I have a char. death AU lurking in the back of my own mund... buit it's VERY AU

<JCSun> Yup. It's an expression of organic chemistry that results in illogical thinking and irrational behavior.

<JCSun> Cool.

<Guest6> Happiness is relative. If M & K are still alive and not more miserable than usual, that's happy.

* Guest7 hates it when Alex dies or is left unhappy

<MJ> prefer that chemistry right now

<MJ> Now, I killed Krycek before the story started in "Pencils" Interlude...

<Drovar> Of course, I'll settle for the potential for a happy conclusion.

<Viridian5> But that was imaginary

<DMilan> The poor guys are so miserable on the show, I like to do the slash fairy bit and give them a little happiness.

<Drovar> MJ: ackk.

<Viridian5> as opposed to the fic <g>

<JCSun> Speaking of violent character deaths, froggiedoggie had a v. nice one...

<Guest10> DMilan.. I like that attitude:-)

<DMilan> What can I say - I love 'em too much to kill 'em.

<Viridian5> indeedy

<MJ> But Drovar, Mulder needed to have a dead body on the floor of his apartment so Walt Skinner, P.I. could investigate...

<Viridian5> Drugs don't work right for me anyway, so I am a swinging moodster

<Viridian5> Thus, Viridian and Manic!Viridian

<Viridian5> Drugs, smut, and rock&roll?

<DMilan> Yeah, anybody who's read my meager offerings...am I being too sappy?

<Drovar> Sure, what don't readers want to see anymore of?

<Guest4> DMilan what are the stories?

<Guest4> is that your writer name?

<Guest10> Skinner/Mulder!!!

<DMilan> A Gift of the Truth and One Perfect Moment of Happiness, both on MKRA. Donna Milan is my writer and real name.

<DMilan> Well at my feeble pace, it's not rampant.

<Guest4> yikes sorry DMilan..i am behind on my m/sk

<Viridian5> we're just razzing you cause it's fun

<Guest4> but i am sure ur an excellent writer

<DMilan> Actually, they're both M/K.

<Guest10> I cannot think of anything I don't want to read... except shippy Mulder/Scully.

<Viridian5> not into m/sk unless it's written *extrememly, incredibly, miraculously* well

<JCSun> DMilan, I've looked but can't find it...

<Guest4> omg..i haven't read an M/K..yikesssssss

<Guest4> i have to read it..

<Guest4> i LOVE M/K

<Host1> Okay this is a question for the male member of our panel:

<Host1> Do you find yourself trying to write different from the women? Do you try to put a 'male' perspective?

<Drovar> Well, I do see things from a little bit of a different perspective I suppose, and that does come through, I think, in how I write. It's not really a conscious, male vs. female thing, but more a factor of my own style.

<Viridian5> I've had people ask me my gender once in a while. I guess it's not immediately obvious from my writing

<Drovar> I thought you were a guy for a long time, Vir5. Imagine my surprise.

<Host2> Well, do any of the female writers feel their gender has much to do with their writing style?

<Viridian5> I like the way my name is a bit neutral

<Guest4> but isn't that why the slash is a lot of times wildly romantic because its written by women?

<JCSun> ...There's wildly romantic slash?

<Viridian5> I really don't know. My female characters tend to be strong, but that's stereotypical to say it's because I'm female

<Viridian5> strong as in, they take crap from no one, ya know

<MJ> Hey, I loathe romance stories; could burn Harlequin

<Drovar> Sometimes, but I'm a middle-aged guy, and I LIKE romance. I can't write it at all, but I like reading it.

<Guest12> the slash I'm reading isn't "widly romantic"

<Host2> Yes - neutral pen names. I used to have a neutral pen name, but everyone assumed I was female, just because of the odds in fanfic.

<Guest14> There is a lot of slash that is written so that the characters read like women with dicks, pardon my bluntness.

<MJ> although I've joked that I'm the Barbara Cartland of Slash before...

<Guest4> i find the language in many of the slash in Archive x and MKRA 'romantic'

<DMilan> I try for wildly romantic, I sorta think the guys need some romance in their lives.

<Guest6> What was it about V's writing that made you think she was male?

<Drovar> Well, to me Viridi

<Guest10> Guest14, can you give an example?

<Viridian5> My smut has an emotional connection, not just sex for sex's sake (not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that...)

<Guest14> We don't see much in the characters that seems really male. I considered it a great compliment when I was told that I wasn't writing women with dicks, but men.

<Viridian5> Thus, a bit of romance

<Viridian5> I hate m/m that's thinly disguised m/f

<MJ> agree!

<Guest6> I see more absurdly sappy romance from guys than women. There are lots of sappy

<Host3> enjoys wild romance M/Sk as well as huh... more specific fanfic....

<Drovar> well to me Viridian seemed to be a masculine name. And the fiction she writes, has something of an edge to it, that you don't see in some females writing. Of course that's just a personal impression.

<Guest14> Well, there are many stories in which, for example, Skinner and Mulder fall into each others arms and call each other honey or sweetie or lovebunny (exaggerating) and open up to each other emotinoally.

<MJ> Um, the worst glop offender I can think of is a male writer

<Guest14> Immediately.

<Viridian5> thanks!

<Host2> Yes, I can think of a few very romantic stories from guys.

<MJ> uh, I think Guest14 and I are on the same one, too...

<Guest6> writers of both genders, but the good female writers aren't wildly romantic

* Host2 thinks I'm thinking of the same writer as MJ and Guest14.

<Guest14> As my gay brother said to me once, hell, Sis, *my* best emotional relationships are with women and I'm a gay male. Men are shits!

<Host1> So romance without the sentimentality is that what people want?

<Viridian5> My edge is something I can't help, not that I want to stop it...

<Guest14> I don't go *that* far, I just think that men have more trouble opening up emotionally than some of these stories portray.

<Host3> Guest14 - exceptions are the rules.

<MJ> JiM: everyone needs/craves emoptional exploration, but if it's well-wroitten it's not "romance"

<Viridian5> I'm a M/K fan. Misunderstandings and refusal to open up are par for the course

<Host1> But what I've heard here, is that the reason people write slash is to access the emotional lives that we don't see in the show

<Guest14> Right, Host3, I agree.

<Guest4> i always figured that mulder/krycek have known each other long enough to 'talk' some things out

<Host2> good point, Host1!

<MJ> Walter is trying to learn to open up some in my stuff. Which is pretty canonical, actually.

<Viridian5> You can write the characters from the inside and *know*

<Guest14> So, when I write them, I try to write them as male human beings who are struggling with the same issues we all do. And I do think women are enculturated to discuss emotions more easily than men.

<DMilan> I think M & K understand each other a lot more than they let on.

<Guest10> If a man reads slash.. I guess that means he already has opened up to emotion. They are not exactly science reports:-)

<Viridian5> They've talked some things out... and made assumptions

<Guest14> I think men have a tougher time exposing their emotions.

<Guest6> Hell, Mulder and Krucek have trouble opening up emotionally. It ain't because they're men, IMHO.

<Viridian5> No, it's because of who they are

<Guest14> No, it's because they're both fucked up. But men and women differ far more than in the area of genitalia. That's one of the reasons I like slash.

<Viridian5> Being men doesn't help, though

<MJ> DMilan's right. The love/hate thiong they've got is so Freudian... it's absolutely basic stuff.

<Guest14> I like men, I just don't want one of my own. <g>

<Host1> I mean, saying all men have trouble opening up is like saying all women are emotional.

<Viridian5> Hera, hear!

<Host3> canon Mulder & Krycek have quite a load of problems to solve, before opening up is possible

<Guest14> Hear hear!

<Guest14> I agree.

<Host2> and Skinner does, too, IMO - I think it's because they're CC's characters, and that's how he sees men...as emotionally closed off.

<Guest14> Women have trouble opening up, too, I agree, but we're trained socially to do that.

<Viridian5> Not saying all men

<Viridian5> I have trouble opening up that comes from being fucked-up (shrugs)

<Guest4> i think skinner is alot more closed emotionally thank krycek..imean that kiss scene spoke volumes

<Guest4> u haven't seen skinner hug mulder yet

<MJ> Skinner is very emotionally closed, but he's from a time/space where that was expected

<DMilan> Yeah, but I can't write 50 pages leading up to the opening up, if I want anyone to read the story. People want smut and they don't always want to wait for it, especially from a beginner.

<Host1> So what do the men in the audience think?

<Viridian5> Yeah, but Skinner's his boss

<Guest4> really..i like the stories that can hold the smut

<Host3> Guest4... chokeholds are no hugs then... grin??

<Guest6> Hell, Scully has trouble opening up emotionally too.

<Guest4> no baby ..choke holds don't count

<MJ> Great writing's more important than the smut, really -- slash is writing, first and foremost. If you can't write, you can't write slash

<Viridian5> That's it exactly

<Host2> I think it's kind of sad we feel we can't write sotries that mainly explore the characters, not just jump into the sex asap.

<Guest14> Thank you, and I think the stories we were obliquely mentioning prove that.

<JCSun> Definately.

<Guest4> but..i do notice that women have a way of writing the ACTUAL sex scene

<Guest4> differently

<MJ> Precisely, Guest14...

<JCSun> In what manner?

<Guest4> than i would in my 'male' perspective

<Guest14> Hey, I don't care. I write the characters, what they do is what I write.

* Guest10 agrees with MJ... i like PWP too, if it's well written, though I prefer good storylines.

<Guest14> If they don't have sex, I don't write the sex.

<Guest6> Brilliantly put.

<Viridian5> I am queen of plot, usuyally

<Guest12> I don't buy that it has to do with gender, it's writing styles

<Guest4> i mean..the way they describe the sex act..its funny sometimes

<Guest6> In what way?

<Guest14> A lot of female slash writers write anal sex as if it were vaginal sex. I think livengoo posted an eloquent essay on that on SlashX this week.

<Viridian5> yeah

<JCSun> Exceedingly eloquent.

<Guest4> the adjectives used..

<Host1> Example Guest4?

<Viridian5> fun with adjectives...

<Guest14> You mean, men write it like, "I'm gonna cum like a stick of dynamite, baby!"?

<Guest14> I've seen that.

<Host3> Guest14, imo a lot of female slashers write as if anal sex is everything... imo -- it's one cool thing to do, but there's so much out there. So much playful variety between two men.

<Guest4> oh god no..Guest14

<Guest14> Yup.

<JCSun> Such as?

<Guest10> Adjectives is writing, not sex, IMHO. The difference I see is in the balls.. the lack of ball play, very often.

<Guest14> Heh. I try to include THAT in my sex scenes, Guest10

<Host2> Do many women maybe have an aversion to balls?

<Guest14> Not me. <blushing>

<Guest12> LOL, nope

<Guest10> Yes, Guest14... some do:-) But not too many female writers.

<DMilan> I like em. <DMilan smacking her lips>

<Guest14> Hey, I try and include everything. <g>

<Host2> Can't appreciate anything so weird looking? ;^)

<Viridian5> snort. no comment

<Guest14> And anything my characters have done, I've checked out with my brother as being physically possible! <giggling harder>

<Host1> O rperhaps as females, we go for the parts *we* enjoy the most ;)

<Host3> ball games... one thing that is woohoo... and often neglected.

<MJ> I came out among gay men, have had a lot of exposure to gay m,ale porn; was really surprised myself atr the anal sex fixation of other female writers

* Guest14 nods at Host3

* Host2 thinks we should schedule a class here on ball play. ;^)

<Te> Mulder, I do understand that... a lot of us just really like the idea of one of our BSOs getting ridden hard.

<Guest14> BSO?

<Guest6> Well, a lot of female writers I've read do ball play. I don't happen to like it, so I don't write it.

<Viridian5> beautiful sex object?

* Te bemoans her own forgetfulness of the testicles

<DMilan> Undoubtedly, we'll now see a delightful rush of ball play stories in the near future.

<Guest4> i see alot of 'finger getting the ass ready '

<Guest14> There's always the strip of rawhide for that.

<Guest4> i see very little rimming

<Guest14> Really? No, I think you're right. Anna <fanning self> wrote one of the hottest rimming bits in The Hustler.

<Host3> second that, Guest4 - teasing senselessly and then go-go

<Guest9> Some of my favourite slash stories, are those where the characters are comfortable with each other - playful almost.

<Guest14> Yeah, I agree. I like first time stories, but I like to get them where they're having fun with each other as well as hot sex.

<Viridian5> Playfulness is good...

<Te> I have nothing against balls!

<Te> I just... forget 'em....

<Host2> so maybe some resolutions for the cumming year - more rimming, ball torture, oral sex, etc.?

<Guest10> Yep, like playful... good sex should always be:-)

<Guest6> She admits it! She's not putting anything against their balls!

<Guest10> LOL, Te!!

<Te> <cackling>

<Guest4> i read a story the other day..m/k had unsafesex at some playground

<Guest4> and then had safesex at home?

* Guest14 smugly considers her descriptions of ball play, rimming, and oral sex.

<Host3> Te - not even a stretcher?

<Guest6> Sometimes 'battered sex object'

<Te> MJ, I think the anal fixation has a lot to do with people not getting enough with hands and mouths.

<Host3> I believe anal sex is a stereotype gay thing... at least taken for that often

<MJ> Now, Te, that could be.

<JCSun> I would imagine that would hurt.

<Te> Well, finger0fucking is major squidge for me to read... As for CBT, well, my SO wants me to write more of that... it's just not a turn-on.

* Alicia raises hand. Me! I write rimming!

<Te> CBT= Cock and Ball Torture

<Te> Rimming *rules*

<Guest4> i am not into CBT

<Guest10> Uhm... I am sorry, I haven't read it yet. But thank you for the dedication... it made me beam:-))

<Guest4> i can't even imagine hurting nads..

<Guest4> lol

<MJ> I've noticed that the amount of anal sex in some authors' stuff would require surgery for at least one party. Guest14 and I know who I mean, too.

<Viridian5> Not into torture, really

<Te> Well.... comfortable and playful is kinda hard to get away with in M/K.

<DMilan> Torture no, teasing, yes.

* Guest15 perks up - it's the infamous sex and realism discussion!

<Guest4> i do wanna write a story in which mulder licks alex's ass then gets hepatitis

<Te> Gleefully violent, now... that's another story.

<Viridian5> Teasing is great!

<Guest4> that would funny to explain to scully

* Guest14 nods at MJ. I mean, poor Mulder would be able to carry a bowling ball around without his hands.

<Viridian5> We've done that, haven't we, luv?

<Host3> rough anal sex (no lube) is killing... I see no joy in that. And wonder who does...

<Viridian5> I don't know either

<Guest4> omg..no lube

<Guest4> actually i know a guy who uses no lube but then u can fit a mack truck up his ass.. he has been a bottom queen for too long

<Guest4> Te i must admit i read a story by u the other and i didn't understand it..

<Guest4> something about a hook and cutting and blood..

<Te> Again, I'd have to say it's less stereotype than what *we* want to see.

<Guest6> So I shouldn't feel guilty about my oral fixzation?

<JCSun> Guilt? Guilt?

<Te> God no, Guest6, just get the hell over here.

<JCSun> Not as long as you write some, no.

* Guest10 thinks oral is nice

<Guest4> oral is super nice

<Alicia> So, getting back to the buttsex thing, are readers just as happy if there's "only" oral sex or hand jobs, etc.?

<Guest6> Yes, if there's no lube, it better be because the torturer wants it to hurt.

<Guest10> I would be happy with that. Or better... not always anal, the other things, too. Especially oral...

<Guest4> i think u don't have to have always anal..mutual masterbuation,frottage,etc

<Guest12> frottage is nice

<Guest14> Well, I have to admit, while the sex is hot, I'm actually looking for the relating between the two characters, what it means, yadda yadda.

<Guest4> is excellent and just as satisfying

<Guest6> Yes, the hook! Nastynastynasty. I loved it.

<Guest14> There's a dark imagery there. I sometimes envy it, because I devolve always to schmoop. <sadly>

<Guest4> i didn't get the hook..i didn't get what it all meant..

<Viridian5> Hmm, my concept of M&K is that they get off on the danger the other represents

<Guest4> r they human m/k?

<Guest4> i just was confused as hell..lol

<Guest15> I frequently get the impression that people aren't happy w/ a slash story if there isn't fucking. And I also sometimes get the impression that people write other things because they feel that *everyone* writes fucking, although they'd really rather write fucking than the other things. (Was that confusing or what?)

<JCSun> Joyce, the whitebread girl, can't understand any of the terminology.

<Viridian5> I sometimes go the impression that people were Impatient with my first story for the lack of cuking

<Guest14> I actually get complaints if I leave the boys at the bedroom door.

<Guest10> No Guest15... I was most happy with the first pencil story MJ wrote... they didn't do it in the office.. and it was the most perfect thing!!

<Viridian5> I can go on UST and LOVE it

<Guest15> You can do a lot of really neat things with the violence and potential for violence between M and K. But I get the feeling it's also easy to use the violence or whatever as more of a slick shock, to skate over issues rather than explore them...

<Viridian5> My Mulder constantly wonders about it, and feels guilty

<JCSun> It is easy, but the fact that it's easy to use violence to gloss over issues makes a statement about the nature of violence itself.

<Host1> CURRENT TOPIC: VIOLENCE IN STORIES

<Guest6> I just write the way the characters feel right. I don't care if they tease each other for 20,000 words before they get to the sex

<DMilan> I like violence in a BDSM context.

<Viridian5> Violence is entwined in everything in my Alex's life; thus his displays of tenderness and solicitousness are all the noticeable

<Te> For me, if there's violence in a story of mine there's a reason for it. "Mine, Yours" had absolutely nothing to do with pain, or violence, or even the blood.

<Viridian5> more noticeable

* Guest10 nods. In a BDSM context, I can agree with it

<JCSun> ...ditto to what Viridian and Te brilliantly said. M/K, which I write breath and dream about, is a violent relationship.

<Te> LOL! I like to pretend it's a crusade, but really it's just what I want to write at any given time. I used to *be* Byers, and I have the hots for Langly.

<JCSun> Mulder hits people, Krycek hits people and then they go have sex in an alleyway.

<Viridian5> snort

<JCSun> Te, you've got a crusade to corrupt the innocent...

<MJ> JiM: If it works for the story, yes; if it's working out someone's personal kinks, no

<Guest6> But you'll share it V, pretty please? I'll make it worth your while...

<Viridian5> Mulder has had so many things yanked away from him, he feels the need to lash out

<DMilan> I see Mulder hitting Krycek for making him want him, and Krycek hitting Mulder for not giving into his desire.

<Host2> yeah, JC - in canon, Mulder and Krycek have a lot to do with violence.

<Host3> I can see M/K happening, but then I have to erase Anasazi for good.

<Viridian5> We all know K could have killed M easily by now if he wanted to

<Guest10> I never can see Mulder as an agressor.. not sexually, not emotionally.

<DMilan> And vice versa.

<JCSun> There's a reason for him to sit there and take the abuse...

<Host1> So, you see violence as part of the M/K relationship. A way of communicating?

<Guest15> <grinning evilly> But if their violence is all sublimation, shouldn't it stop once they get it on?

<MJ> JiM: the characters, esp. Krycek, live in a violent world; some of it's to be expected

<JCSun> I agree that Mulder's not much of an agressor, but he's a powerful reactor.

<Viridian5> Right, because they can't, because of who they are, say it

<Viridian5> Mulder isn't even sure of what he wants, anyway

<Guest6> Violence is an important part of the language of XF canon, so it's sometimes necessary in stories to include that aspect.

<Viridian5> Not all sublimation, it's *them*

<Te> OK. Violence. The only stories of mine that I consider violent are "Aenima" and "And No Other". I don't like just having the boys beat on each other, because I believe that RatB shows that Alex is pretty damned sick of taking that from Mulder... and that he also won't hurt M gratuitously.

<JCSun> Te, you've got a pretty strict definition of violence...

<Guest6> What, V?

<Viridian5> My Mulder turns violent again once he's had time to brood over what he's done

<JCSun> I need my daily dose of the boyz emotionally/physically hurting each other.

<Viridian5> For them, violence is self-defense

<Te> I think they have rough sex. Lots of it... but aren't out to strictly cause pain at this point.

<MJ> In my M/Sk stuff, I'm trying to find space where they don't have to deal with the violence that's a part of their lives the rest of the time

<JCSun> But them? They'd proabbly be much better off in a tropical island paradise where the sky is blue and the lube is always at hand.

<Te> YEs, Guest15, yes! They stop!

<Guest15> I find it interesting that people make a lot of Krycek's violence but not so much of Mulder's. Even apart from beating up K, M has a history of hitting people--suspects in custody. K works with this, it's his job to kill people, beat them up etc, but Mulder isn't supposed to and he does it anyway. I find that more disturbing...

<Viridian5> For M, K is the only outlet for this. He has to keep the lid screwed on tight in every other aspect of his life

<DMilan> In canon, I think they're moving toward not needing it anymore. At least not from each other.

<Viridian5> When M loses it, it's always scary 'cause there's so much there

<DMilan> I can't wait to see how their next canon confrontation will turn out.

<Viridian5> Me either!

* Guest15 finds emotional torture much more satisfying than physical, but there's nothing wrong with combining the two

<DMilan> Another gap for us to play with.

<Guest10> I see it as tactics with Mulder... for K it seems something natural, violence...

<JCSun> And if CC just conveniently 'forgets' the Kiss...

<Viridian5> When my M&K are involved, it stops

<Te> <giggling> And here's where we disagree. But then you thought "Mine, Yours" was gratuitous torture, Viridian...

<JCSun> Guest10--but there seems to be a primal, uncontrollable element to Mulder's violence.

<Viridian5> he better not...

<Viridian5> I did, Te

<Viridian5> Just went too far for me

<DMilan> If CC 'forgets' the kiss, he's simply the antichrist.

<Guest15> Guest10, I always saw it the other way arond--for Krycek violence is a tool nothing more, but Mulder really loses his temper...

<JCSun> Mine, Yours . . .was. . . sadistic.

<Viridian5> Alex is controlled violence, Mulder is an atom bomb when he goes off

<JCSun> Duck, and run for cover.

<DMilan> Yeah, but it had cigars in it. I like cigars.

<Guest15> I thought "Mine, yours" was kind of sweet.

<Guest10> I don't see it like this, JC... it seems controllable to me.

<Host1> Guest15, I agree, Mulder's agner is sublimated, most of the time, so when it comes out, it explodes

<Viridian5> :::backing away:::: <g> sorry, Guest15

<DMilan> It showed in an original way how much Alex wants Mulder to give him the emotional part of himself.

<Te> Yes, I do have a strict definition of violence. Guest15, you have a point. M is a violent individual, but I like V's point about outlets. He's frustrated... so give him something that alleviates the frustration.

<JCSun> Guest10: but then why does he lash out (canon wise) at some of the most innopportuen moments?

<Te> <shrug> We already had this discussion. Uh oh... No. It. Was. Not.

<Te> It wasn't about sadism.

<Guest15> Sorry, Viridian, but I did! <g> Nothing I'd want to get into, personally, but it made a lot of sense in the way it was written, and it was <wait for it> extremely romantic... in a creepy kind of way.

<Guest10> Give me an example, JC.. don't have every scene in mind.

<Viridian5> John Lee Roche in Paper Hearts, Duane Barry...

<Guest6> Yes, I thought "Mine,Yours" was sweet

<JCSun> Guest10: You're talking to the person who calls 'Tunguska' the eppy where they chopped his hand off...But for instance, the first episode of the Tunguska/Terma (whichever it was) duo.

<Viridian5> He loses his temper in front of the locla pd at times

<JCSun> Even when Mulder *has* to know that Krycek handed him the arrest, he keeps beating Krycek up,

<Viridian5> That was brutal

<Viridian5> That car scene...

<Guest10> He needed to get something from them, and uses violence as a matter to do so.

<JCSun> at the risk of isolating K and losing his arrest.

<Guest15> He can't seriously have thought that strangling Duane B would get him info, or that hitting Roche servedany purpose other than relieving his frustration...

<DMilan> Roche provoked him, though.

<Guest10> I see Mulder adapt there. Krycek understand violence, so Mulder uses it.

<Viridian5> Of course he did

<Host1> I agree with DMilan on that

<Viridian5> But you're law enforcement

<Viridian5> you should know better

<Guest15> Sure he provoked him. But Mulder's an FBI agent. He's supposed to be able to withstand a little provocation without starting to beat up his suspects.

<DMilan> But it was his sister.

<Host1> Skinner should never have let Mulder follow up that case.

<Viridian5> That's for sure

<MJ> Too bad; he should still control it.

* Guest15 is fascinated with Mulder's violence issues

<Viridian5> he let a child molester/killer loose on the populace

<MJ> As Skinner says to Scully in Piper Maru, if you get too close to it, back out

<Viridian5> Me too, Guest15!

<Guest4> i think Mulder has serious psychological problems

<Te> Yes, I wanted you to do more with it in "Lovers"

<Guest4> he shouldn't be an FBI agent he needs a shrink..

<Viridian5> I agree, oh, do I agree

<Guest4> if u really look and study his behaviour

<Guest15> Te, I didn't realize until halfway through that I had to add it in. :-) More later, I hope.

<DMilan> Why is it that shrinks often need shrinks themselves?

<Guest10> Psychological problems, I agree. But I don't see violence as a primal character trait.

<Host1> But how much of this is the character and how much is lazy writing by cc etal

<Viridian5> Every psych major I knew was screwed-up

<Guest4> i think CC is building up to have that as an excuse to get rid of mulder

<Guest4> when DD decideds to dump xfiles

<Guest10> Guest4, that's an interesting POV!

<MJ> I'm currently doing a semiserious psych study on Mulder's character

<Guest15> Yep. M shouldn't be allowed out in the field... but this is only another example of the XF/reality divergence that the fanfic writer has to smooth over somehow...

<Guest4> mulder is his father..and thats frightening..

<Viridian5> It's not laziness. I see it and understand it

<Guest4> i think alex sees it too

<Host3> Mulder's reeling mind is faster than anyones, I guess, Mulder's psychological input is most important for that kind of cases... no matter how dangerous it gets

<MJ> I'm writing it for XFU. The violence has to be considered... but it's not major issue all the time.

<Viridian5> I think M's golden boy status let him get away with a lot

<Guest10> MJ, can we get that MulderStudy when we're not on the list??

<Te> Mulder needs Alex to take him away from it all, fling him against a wall, and fuck him into a better mindstate.

<Viridian5> The violence isn't all there is to him, but it's a major component of his canon relations with Krycek

<Guest4> i think mulder's psychological problems is his cause to his closeted sexuality..i think CC did that on purpose

<Viridian5> <g>

<Guest15> So how about the combination of violence and sex? No, I don't mean bdsm, I mean the uncontrolled stuff, the borderline and not so borderline rape stories... do y'all feel that those are in character given what we've seen of the violence between the guys?

<MJ> Sure, just started it

<Guest4> he makes Mulder screwy in the head..a man with problems is also a man with sexual problems too

<Guest6> I don't like it, but it's not implausible.

<Te> I think that a lot of violence can be excused by looking at canon. Rape, snuff, anything and everything is far more plausible than M&K going shopping for curtains.

<Viridian5> LOL

<Guest4> i think Phoebe and mulder speak volumes on mulder's sexuality..a very butch aggressive female lover

<Viridian5> an abusive one too, it seems

<Guest4> i think rape is out of character

<Guest15> The Curtain Challenge. Write a curtain-shopping story that *isn't* schmoop. Can it be done?

<Guest4> for alex k and mulder..i don't find them the sexually abusive type

<DMilan> When you look at warm & fuzzy on one end of the scale and rape on the other, rape doesn't seem quite so out of character.

<Viridian5> I think they might start that in a rage, but I don't think they could maintain it all the way through

<MJ> Yes, Guest15, it can.

<Te> LMAO... NOOOOO! NOOOO! You saw what happened when someone challenged me to write a puppy story.

<Guest4> i think mulder is more glory hole kinda guy.. imean..str8 man at a male xxx theater?

<Guest4> and not there for the sex and gloryholes ?

<Guest15> Mm, I keep wondering. I can't quite see either guy as a rapist, myself, but it may have something to do with my strong dislike of the genre in general (the genre of rape stories, although the genre of rapists too, of course, if that is a genre). If we posit that it would happen, which one of them would do it to the other?

<Guest4> alex can't even hit mulder neverless rape him..

<Guest12> Mulder to Krycek I think is more plausible

<DMilan> I've read both by different people, but both were AU stories.

<Te> If Mulder's straight I'm a petite blonde. I've seen stories that squicked the hell out of me, but still made me believe in *either* of them as rapists.

<Guest15> Yes, Te, I saw what happened. I'm waiting....

<Guest4> and if mulder raped alex taht would open a closetdoor he is too frightened to see out of LOL

<Guest6> If K did it, it would be for a reason.

<Viridian5> yes!

<MJ> Mulder straight? Just ask Hester. CC didn't say it, and she admits it...<g>

<Guest4> i think mulder would rape alex..before alex would rape mulder..

<Guest15> There's believe and there's believe--I've read stories that have made me suspend disbelief for the duration, but I haven't yet come up with a scenario that would make *me* write it.

<Host3> Krycek craves for Mulder, fine... I refuse to see it vice versa... just can't see it.

<Viridian5> That uncontrollable temper...

<Guest6> Yes, I agree with that.

<Guest4> if Mulder had no feelings for Alex , alex would be DEAD now

<MJ> I don't think M's particularly heterosexual at all. But even with the occasional violent streak I don't think he's really rapist material by a longshot.

<Guest4> mulder can kill when he wants too

<Viridian5> My rape stuff never involved M&K

<Guest4> and holds back nothing..

<Viridian5> Not like I have a whole genre of it....

<Guest4> i think for the rape to happen ,would have to be a drug thing..not under control cause of other factors..

<Guest15> I find it so difficult to analyze characters' canon behavior--I always look outside to whatever motivation the writers might have had. <g>

<DMilan> I'm much more inclined to believe a 'forceful seduction' scenario than a straight rape.

<Guest4> i find CC being a little homophobic though..

<Guest10> I don't see the rape thing with any of them, but see K as the more ruthless one.

<Viridian5> The writers have such varying interpretations...

<Guest4> and disturbs me..

<Guest12> I don't see K as raping Mulder

<Guest4> if the alliance for m/k is semisexual..he has made it dark,dirty, and a break of control for mulder

<Guest15> Forceful seduction I could definitely see, yes.

<Viridian5> me too

<MJ> That trhought of CC homophobia is interesting...

* Guest15 has been told that some people think Hard as hell is a rape story

<Te> I'd rather not see either of them as rapists, but writers have made me suspend disbelief... And hate them for doing so.

<Viridian5> I saw it that way, almost

<Guest12> What?!

<Guest12> <surpirised>

<Guest15> Well, it works if you see CSM as the rapist, I think.

<Viridian5> Cyclone Mulder hits before K has a *chance* to decline