<Host1> WELCOME EVERYONE TO THE M/SK BDSM CHAT!

<Griff> Our three invited authors are Diana Williams, Kassandra and Xanthe, and then I'm Griffin Grimes, wearing my lovely Lady's collar, of course. ;^)

<Griff> Diana, want to tell us a thing or two about yourself and your BDSM writing?

<Diana> You would pick me first, huh? Okay. <Deep Breath>

<Diana> Hi! I'm Diana Williams, and I am currently writing a BDSM saga - "Chains of Desire"

<Griff> and each chapter of "Chains" seems to be quite eagerly awaited on all the lists.

<Guest1> When did you start with it, Diana?

<Diana> I started writing "Chains" last October, just posted the last chapter today.

<Xanthe> You mean *latest* chap don't you?!!!!

<Griff> the *last* chapter?

* griff{LZ} gasps

<Diana> Not the LAST chapter - the most recent chapter

<Xanthe> Phew!

<Griff> Well, next alphabetically is me. Even though I'm a host here, for once I'm considering myself a featured author, too...

<Griff> I wrote "Puppeteer", which has a kind of prequel in "Marionette"...hope to continue it some day soon.

<Griff> and next is Kassandra... who keeps lighting that grail-shaped beacon<g>.

<Griff> so, what do you have to tell us about what you've been doing, Kass?

<Kass> Well, I've just been writing a fair amount, I guess. As I've often said, I may not be an artiste, but I am certainly prolific.

<Griff> You recently started the ATXCM newsgroup, that's cool.

<Host2> And well known for your wonderful Out of the Dark story

<Kass> Well, but I did it at a request. <g>

* Kass blushes

<Kass> It was just that I knew how to do the mechanics. <g>

<Griff> ah....interesting! <seeing Kass the mechanic>

<Kass> Lessee, I just posted a bunch of short pieces, and Shock the Monkey, which has nothing to do with BDSM

<Kass> Of creating a newsgroup, Griffie. <g>

<Griff> lol

<Kass> I had to take my car to get the clutch replaced this week, I WISH I was a mechanic. <g>

<Griff> so, we all don't *just* write BDSM...but, is it our favorite genre?

<Griff> Xanthe, can you introduce yourself?

<Xanthe> I've written a few BDSM stories, and some stuff that's just plain old fashioned discipline.

<Xanthe> Subterfuge is the BDSM story people know best of my stuff

<Diana> And Game Play

<Xanthe> Sadly I write so much of the stuff that I've given it a special section on my site.

* Guest10 notes that he is enormously enjoying semi-BDSM series "Nice Guys Finish Last"

<Host1> QUESTION FOR ALL GUEST-AUTHORS: Why BDSM... What made you write a BDSM story in the first place?

<Griff> so, any of the writers...why are you drawn to writing BDSM?

<Griff> How do we see the dynamics in M/Sk as different from other pairings? Or, expecially interesting?

<Kass> Well, Griff.....in a very real sense, these are both very controlled, very contained men.

<Kass> Mulder lives like a monk, and as far as we can tell, so does Skinner.

<Kass> For different reasons. Mulder, because of his obsessions and Skinner because of control.

<Kass> But nobody is ever as simple as their exterior suggests.

<Griff> good point - it definitely makes us want to get deeper into them, how secretive they are.

<Kass> Exactly.

<Kass> And there's the issues of trust and surrender.

<Diana> There's so much beneath the surface - it makes you itch to find out what makes them tick.

<Host1> Thank god for this, otherwise you writer wouldn't want to explore these characters if they were so plain

<Xanthe> One could suggest (and I realise this goes against the general consensus), that because M's life is so out of control, and Sk is so controlled, that they might want to swap these roles in the bedroom.

<Griff> I was thinking today how often the secretiveness of the BDSM subculture is often a big theme in stories.

<Griff> Yes, I agree, Xanthe...

<Xanthe> That's part of the fun though.

<Kass> What I find interesting is that in BDSM is that, imho, the bottom actually holds all the power.

* griff{LZ} likes that, too. ;^)

<Xanthe> Well - I like to think of it as an exchange of power.

<Xanthe> With both partners equal

<Kass> I think everyone has different views of the dynamic.

<Diana> And it is exploring that exchange of power that is so much fun.

<Xanthe> Oh god yes, Diana!

<Griff> it's interesting how many different "takes" people have on BDSM.

<Xanthe> The very idea of someone in effect giving up their power to someone they love is erotic. To me at least.

<Guest5> well it depends really on whether it is a Dom-me/sub or a Dom-me/slave relationship too

<Host1> Question 4 ALL: Why do you think M/Sk are particularly suited to BDSM treatment <g>?

<Griff> Yeah, to me Mulder and Skinner are begging to be paired in BDSM stories.

<Xanthe> That's the way I saw them at first

<Xanthe> In fact it was the only dynamic I saw between them at first

<Guest6> Which sort of makes the writer the top, eh?

<Griff> I think they both have personalities and backgrounds that make them likely candidates to be into BDSM.

<Xanthe> fed by the physical interations we see between them onscreen

<Xanthe> That's one of the reasons I like writing!

<Xanthe> I think M displays very submissive body language with Sk earlier on.

<Griff> ooh, Xanthe...so you like writing because you can be real toppy?

<Xanthe> And Sk was *very* toppy in the beginning

<Xanthe> Um, yes, in a way Griff. <G>

<Guest4> I dunno. Sometimes I think the characters control me as much as the reverse,

<Griff> oh, just the chokehold scene in the hallway.... <sighs>

<Xanthe> I do find the power over the characters...amuses me.

<Xanthe> The chokehold!

<Guest8> Dean Koontz the horror writer says writing is the ultimate career for a control freak

<Xanthe> I replayed that so many times when it first aired!

<Guest6> Unless you're writing for television

<Griff> then, why do us subbies like to write?

<Griff> we like the power, too<g>.

<Kass> I find this interesting because I'm not at all in control of the story, they're telling it, and I'm merely the chronicle writer.

<Guest5> and it gives us a chance to direct where a scene goes for a change griff ;)

<Diana> I don't know about that! Sometimes I think they're in control - like when I'm writing at 2 in the morning and they won't let me to go bed until I finish that last scene.

<Griff> So, I've heard lots of debate about which in the pair is the more toppy...

<Griff> lol, Diana

* Guest5 just can't see Skinner as a sub.. no way no how

<Griff> Many seem to think Skinner *has* to top, but many also think Sk would like the bottom role.

<Guest3> Oooh, I can

<Xanthe> I can see Sk as a sub much more now than in seasons 2 and 3

<Guest2> me too - I think he'd welcome a change of dynamic frrm work.

<Xanthe> After Zero Sum...

<Diana> In some circumstances, I can.

<Xanthe> Kitsunegari

<Xanthe> And especially SR819 and Triangle.

<Guest3> Definitely

<Xanthe> Although he was nicely toppy in Folie A Deux <G>!!!!

<Xanthe> I love that desk scene...

<Diana> Oh, yeah!

<Griff> yeah, I can definitely see Sk as the "give up the power" type...but I so like him Domming Mulder!

<Guest17> Very toppy!

<Guest1> Has any of you written stories were Mulder tops Skinner?

<Xanthe> Yes

<Xanthe> I've written a couple

<Guest3> I have

<Xanthe> The Angle, and Role Play

<Kass> In Out of the Dark, Mulder tops Skinner as part of his ultimate display of trust to Skinner.

<Griff> I really wanted to on my first story, but my beta reader threatened to leave if I did. ;^)

<Diana> In one chapter of Chains, Mulder topped SKinner as part of his recovery.

<Xanthe> Guest3 wrote the hysterical "Towelfic" with a wonderful sub Walter.

<Griff> I just saw that chapter, Diana...very nice.

<Diana> Towelfis *was* hysterical.

<Griff> So, that was so Mulder wouldn't feel threatened/have flashbacks

<Guest3> Thanks Xanthe and Diana

<Diana> Partly. Mulder had been out of control with Benett, so he needed to have some control in his first "reunion" with Skinner.

<Guest6> But, who GAVE him control. That still makes Skinner the top

<Host2> Although he did lose it towards the end there ;)

<Guest2> A good top knows when to give up a measure of power too

<Guest6> Exactly.

<Diana> Of course. There's the old joke - Is Mulder the top or bottom? Whatever Skinner wants him to be? <BG>

<Guest4> One question for authors: Do you think Skinner was faithful to his wife?

<Xanthe> Oh god YES!

<Xanthe> I think he's a very honorable man.

<Guest2> Definitely

<Diana> Definitely. Skinner's the faithful type.

<Guest17> I think faithful can be different things in different marriages

<Xanthe> it took him *ages* to work out that the call girl was coming onto him.

<Guest4> So even even in the Chains universe, Diana?

<Diana> Even in the one story I wrote with a Pre-X relationship between M&Sk, they had it because Skinner was separated.

<Host1> New Question 4 All: what percentage of your story do you devote to plot and what percentage to bdsm scenes?

<Diana> Gosh! I don't do a percentage. I have a general idea of what I want to do with each chapter, and I go from there.

<Kass> I don't actually plan out the sexual scenes.

<Kass> In fact, I've had screams of dismay from people when I leave the boys at the door and don't write the scene. I don't write the sexual exchange unless it fits in, I guess.

<Diana> Sometimes just the hint of sex happening - the cut away - can be sexier.

<Guest5> *nod* sometimes the sex isn't as important

<Griff> I know when writing or reading BDSM stuff, the sceneing is what gets me *really* involved. What gets me drooling.

<Host1> New Question 4 All: do you use bdsm elements as plot devices or keep that pretty separate from the external plot?

<Kass> So I guess I'd say I don't devote any percentage to the BDSM stuff as side issues.

<Kass> No, it's all a part of the plot, frankly.

<Guest2> sometimes the sex *is* the plot <g>

<Xanthe> There is also the eroticism of their everyday lives as in effect being a BDSM game play

<Xanthe> I vaguely made that point in Subterfuge

<Xanthe> M does sometimes seem to want Sk to be big and strong with him.

<Guest7> Quite well, too!

* Kass nods at Xanthe. That gives some erotic charge to the everyday world.

<Xanthe> I think that's what we all picked up on at first in their relationship re BDSM.

<Xanthe> The power play is there from the beginning

<Host1> New Question 4 ALL: Do you have RL experience with BDSM?

<Kass> No.

<Xanthe> Um, that's kind of personal!

<Kass> There has never been anyone I would trust enough to give over control as a sub, and as a domme.....there isn't anyone I've ever trusted enough to take control. <giggling>

<Host2> With the understanding that no one needs to answer that if uncomfortable.

<Diana> Nope. I do have a gay male friend (model for Sean) who is a leather bottom and an ex-sister-in-law who's a het bottom.

<Xanthe> I'm not prepared to discuss my actual sex life, but I've been on the BDSM scene in London.

<Xanthe> Been to clubs etc. Have some scene friends.

<Diana> I don't think I could - I was in an emotionally abusive marriage, and I'm not about to give that control over again. Now if I was a gay male....

<Xanthe> If I were a gay male I'd want to look like Skinner!

<Guest17> I'd rather be Mulder!

<Kass> I grew up in Gothic circumstances, and my marriage was emotionally abusive, but not physically abusive.

<Guest5> but you've got to keep in mind that there are many strains of bdsm too

<Kass> I don't think it would be possible for me to participate in real life.

<Host2> So the issue we're talking about here is trust, the ability to trust enough to have that exchange of power?

<Guest5> that's the most important thinkg Host2

<Kass> For me.

<Diana> It's ALL about trust.

<Host1> yes Host2, I would say so. Practicing bdsm needs all the deep down trust there is to boldy go places etc

<Guest6> I think we all have a level of D/s in our day-to-day relationships.

<Kass> Exactly.

<Guest3> And M/Sk already trust each other with their lives

<Guest13> If you include role playing in day-to-day lives, certainly

<Kass> I have a friend who is a Zen Buddhist Dharma master now, but in her earlier life, was a Domantrix in LA and her point was that always, always it was the power brokers who wanted to play sub.

<Xanthe> Exactly

<Xanthe> It's the cliche about politicians

<Guest17> I have a question: How do people handle writing sex scenes that deal with things and feelings they've never experienced. Even the basic issue of being a woman and trying to writing being a gay man. It's something I'm having trouble with.

<Kass> Not really. But then, I have tons of brothers, literally, one who is gay, and once you can understand that men are not simply women with dicks, it becomes easier.

<Griff> good point, Kass. ;^)

<Kass> And sex itself is elemental enough that if you do your reading....and ask your brother <eg> ...I have to admit that the best compliment I ever had was a man telling me that I was writing guys

<Diana> Well, I have a gay friend but sometimes it's hard to ask - I have gotten a lot recommendations for books that help.

<Kass> Not women with different parts, so to speak.

<Guest4> I guess part of it is not writing about gay men but about M and SK

<Kass> Hey, my bro used to translate the classifieds for me.

<Kass> A large part of it, yes.

<Kass> And of course, as always, we bring our own baggage to our perceptions of the characters.

<Guest5> *emphatic nod*

<Diana> Which is why there are so many variations on M/Sk.

<Host1> Putting these two complex character in a bdsm situation... is the challenge. Not gay fiction about technics and all

<Griff> oh, yeah, Host1!

<Guest6> Ultimately, we want to know about THEM, the sex, however they get to it, is only a piece of it.

<Griff> I love stories that show how they get into this "scene"

<Diana> Amen.

<Guest3> Exactly

<Kass> Well, I love first time stories. <g>

<Guest17> I worry that I'll get something technically wrong and be laughed out of town.

<Guest1> Gay fiction can be pretty offturning... slash writers use far better language!!

<Griff> That's so hard to show, IMO, since we start them off as middle-aged men.

<Host1> Kass - they are sexy!

<Kass> Ah, borrow Advocate Male and buy some gay fiction. <g>

<Guest3> Well..first time stories for them as a couple still work even if they are middleaged

<Kass> Not necessarily, actually. something my bro sent me said that a lot of men discover their true sexuality in their late thirties. How was that for interesting?

<Diana> Some of the gay fiction is so bad, though. I find much better writing in fanfic. I try to read known male authors to try to get a beeter perspective.

<Griff> Does anyone have a problem with the idea that Mulder and Skinner are *well* into adulthood, and suddenly discover they're gay/bi/into BDSM?

<Kass> And then there's heterosexism in society--suppression of self.

<Griff> I think it's a real challenge to make that believable.

<Guest6> Maybe they didn't just discover it, but just accepted it.

<Guest5> definitely not griff

<Guest17> I don't. I know gay men their age who were married and have teenaged children.

<Diana> No - Mulder's actually at the right age for his generation. I think Skinner's already discovered his orientation but just hasn't had opportunity to practice it.

<Kass> Not really, but then I've done enough reading written by men who denied self-knowledge that long.

<Guest3> Exactly.

<Guest4> Also if you need to posting questions on the slash lists will also give you helpful info

<Guest2> I agree, Diana

<Guest6> I see men in their fifties who are only just discovering this about themselves.

<Kass> De Nile is a pretty long river.

<Diana> Minotaur - great place for advice on gay men in fanfic.

<Griff> well, I feel they need to express *some* kind of suspicion/repression of this earlier in life, if at 38-45 they're suddenly lusting after a man the first time

<Guest17> Where is Minotaur?

<Kass> I think in my stories, I have one of the other admitting that they've been denying it for too long.

<Griff> that kind of goes for all slash, but then there's also the "coming out" about an interest in BDSM.

<Guest11> http://www.gis.net/~minotaur/Tips/core.html

<Guest17> thanks

<Guest5> but the dynamic of bdsm does not necessarily mean they were closeted gays. wouldnt you say?

<Kass> Hell, Griff, that can come at any age.

<Griff> yeah, I see that kind of explanation in all your writing...Diana, Kass, and Xanthe.

<Kass> Actually, no. My sense of things is that many men into the scene...it's less about orientation than the power dynamic. I think I have Skinner thinking that at some point early on in Out of the Dark.

<Guest6> For a lot of men there is a substitution pathology. They drink, they are abusive, they like WWF

<Host1> First to deal with the "Coming out" and then their special preferences is pretty hard on a middle aged man, I figure

<Xanthe> Also there's the issue that someone who might be het in his normal sex life,might not mind being dominated by *either* sex

<Griff> no, Guest5, but the stories that *do* have them discovering it for the first time as adults

<Guest4> Well with Skinner, it might follow that after being a good soldier all his life, and running into Mulder and the xfiles questioning *all* sorts of preconceptions

<Guest1> Guest5, I go with Diana here.. knowledge was there, but not living it.

<Kass> <nodding agreement> Me three.

<Kass> Like I said, De Nile is a long river.

<Guest12> Well for what it's worthy, I'm Skinner's age and am just coming to find the BDSM thing even remotely erotic.

<Griff> Just from my own personal experience, I can't see that they haven't known to some degree before middle age.

<Guest17> Of course, there are people their age who are married, bisexual, have open arrangements.

<Diana> A lot of stories have Skinner involved in a gay relationship in 'Nam, so he's not new to the idea.

<Guest7> Me, too Guest12...mid-life crisis???

<Griff> well, GUEST12, so it's not really your thing, right?

<Guest12> Could be, GUEST7

<Kass> I have a friend who tells me that I have the heart of a dominatrix. <g> Discovered late in life.

<Griff> I've known from childhood that BDSMy things fascinated me.

<Xanthe> me too

<Guest8> but sexual relations and sceneing are not the same thing.

* Guest5 nods

<Kass> Oh, hell, yes, Barbie dolls and all. <LOL>

<Xanthe> Most of the people I met on the scene felt the same way, Griff

<Host1> Same here, griff. Look what I have become <bg>

<Host2> New Question 4 Writers: Do any of the writers can see M/Sk in a BDSM relationship that didn't include sex.

<Kass> Nope. Those two give off such chemistry on screen. <g>

<Guest6> Aren't they in one on the show?

<Diana> No. I've seen Discipline stories that work (nods to Xanthe) but not BDSM w/o sex, IMHO.

<Griff> but, what's the fun of that<g>?

<Xanthe> Just the eroticism of the dynamic I guess

<Xanthe> It can be erotic to watch the two boys being sub and dom in the office. Sort of.

<Diana> It's about the power exchange at that point, but something else would have to be the release valve if there isn't sex.

<Griff> ah, yeah, I can see that as erotic - don't have to include sex all the time.

* Guest1 cannot think of BDSM without sex

<Guest7> Wouldn't BDSM w/o the sex be the ultimate tease?

<Host2> I've read stories that involve spanking where the two characters aren't invovled sexually

<Guest17> Maybe that's how Skinner satisfied himself whilst married--non-sexual BDSM at work. LOL

<Xanthe> LOL Guest17!

<Xanthe> Poor man!

<Guest17> Poor Mulder!

<Guest3> I love the sex with it though.

<Guest1> Kicking butt, butt good:-)

<Guest15> LOL

<Guest3> LOL!

<Host2> I can't read it without the sex. I don't get it.

<Host1> New Question 4 Kass: do you see sceneing and sex as the same thing?

<Xanthe> I do.

<Xanthe> I just like the dynamic.

<Diana> I see scenes leading to sex, as the release of all the tension built up.

<Kass> Me?

* Kass looking around nervously

* Host1 nods. Yeah, you ;)

<Kass> Not necessarily.

<Griff> I do know IRL many people want BDSM w/o the sex...it's just the situation that gets them off

<Guest6> Xanthe was a priest in a previous life.

<Kass> It depends on how ritualized it is.

<Griff> but in *fanfic*, do many people want to read it without it leading to sex?

<Xanthe> LOL. I hope not, Guest6!

<Guest6> You like the penance w/o the pleasure.

<Kass> BUT, and this is my caveat, it's hitting such elemental issues that it may end up being the same thing.

<Guest3> Hmm

<Guest15> I read both

<Diana> What about the readers out there? Do they want to read it without leading to sex?

<Kass> Not me.

<Guest17> I generally don't like it, but not because of a lack of sex, more because of a lack of caring.

<Guest3> <hangs head> I'm shallow

<Guest3> I want sex

<Guest12> Personally, no.

<Guest7> I want sex. Lots and lots of sex.

<Guest5> unless it's a PWP, sex is a bonus

<Xanthe> If you're talking about non sexual spanking, about 800 people read every one of them I post, so presumably they like the idea.

<Guest2> I want the caring too

<Guest6> I want relationship. I'm incurably schmoopy3

<Guest1> I like the sex bits... just keep them cumming!:-)

<Guest3> Yes, the relationship!

<Guest4> sex, sex and more M/Sk sex

<Guest17> Me too Guest6

<Guest1> Oh, I like relationship with the sex.... thanks for reminding me, Guest6:-)

<Guest5> me three

<Guest3> Sex AND the relationship!

<Xanthe> The connection/romance is definitely the hook for me. More than the sex.

<Griff> I like 'em, too, but I can find just the power play/games very erotic

<Guest6> Of course, if the relationship LEADS to sex.......

<Guest15> But a lot of times there is caring behind the non sexual stories

<Diana> But Xanthe, your Discipline stories also have a relationship - just not a sexual one. Otherwise it doesn't work.

<Guest7> I also think the caring is integral. Otherwise, at least to me, it comes across as merely abuse.

<Kass> Yup.

<Guest3> Yes

<Xanthe> Yes, Diana. It would be horrible - abuse otherwise.

<Guest17> Exactly Guest7

<Guest4> And some sort of payoff for the pain

<Xanthe> Just a different kind of hurt/comfort?

<Guest11> I love the relationship and the sex, but I think it would be interesting seeing it as a strictly dom/sub thing, without sex at all. The need for punishment and domination.

<Guest6> Sort of do-it-yourself hurt/comfort

<Guest4> closed circle sort of thing, Guest6

<Guest11> I can easily see Mulder as a pain junkie.

<Guest5> but not all bdsm is about punishment