<Griff> RELATED QUESTION: Are detailed descriptions of physical acts interesting, or are people more interested in mind play?

<Diana> I like both, but then I'm a BDSM slut <BG>

<Xanthe> I like both

<Xanthe> I think it's more fun that way.

<Griff> I like both a whole lot, but think I prefer the mind play - without that, it lacks a whole lot.

<Guest4> depends on the act

<Guest19> mind play is always interesting

<Guest6> Physical without the mind games is really too easy.

<Guest19> It's more of a challenge I think

<Kass> I like the emotional/mental connection.

<Guest19> to both write...and experience

<Guest5> bdsm without D/s isn't bdsm

<Host1> For me, both. Mind game and physicals go together sooo nicely. But if it comes to chose. I know I can always trust my mind

<Guest1> First the mind, then the paddle...

<Guest11> Is it really bdsm without the headspace?

<Guest19> Good point Host1

<Guest19> Actually for me... the mind is more fertile... than the body anytime

<Griff> I think you have to include *some* mind games...I like lots and lots of it, though.

<Diana> The mental/physical thing is actually the focus in my latest chapter, with Skinner preferring the mental aspects.

<Guest20> I love the mind play scene in Subterfuge when Skinner had to punish Mulder. There was just something so "powerful" to it.

<Diana> As they say - the brain is the largest sex organ.

* Host1's brain ejaculates far more often than my body

<Guest19> Yes! good point Guest20

<Griff> Do people prefer the idea of Sk simply giving orders and being subservient, or do they like toys: ice cubes, whips, chains, feathers, etc.?

<Guest19> never underestimate what you're mind can do to or for your body.

<Guest7> It's a wonderful chapter, too, Diana. I just read it this a.m.

<Guest20> Exactly!

<Guest3> I agree about the Subterfuge scene

<Xanthe> I think BDSM is 90% mindplay

<Guest19> Toys can get contrived I think

<Xanthe> I quite like toys...but in Sub I made the point that Sk didn't need them.

<Diana> Toys are just the icing on the cake - the D/s is the substance.

<Guest19> Exactly Xanthe

<Xanthe> He could dom with his voice and his presence.

<Kass> I really do hate the focus on the props. I call it prop mania. Let's stick this chair leg up Mulder's ass and see if he squirms.

<Griff> but it's so much fun to invent new toys - I want to market some of the ones I've thought up!

<Guest19> Right

<Guest3> Exactly

<Guest19> After all...

<Guest17> I like toys as long as they're not too, um, scary. I don't like whips much

<Guest4> The occasional toy is fun but if it's the toy of the month club it starting reading like a catalog

<Xanthe> Some props are a turn off.

<Guest19> a really good Dom should be able to do that.

<Kass> Me, either, Guest17.

<Guest19> by presence alone.

<Guest7> I like toys in context. I'm getting SUCH an education!

<Kass> A good dom should be able to create a scene with a pair of sox and a tie.

<Host1> Presense and act is more important, imo

<Guest19> Right Host1

<Guest6> Isn't that what Mulder used on Skinner in the Angle?

<Guest17> Ties can be rather useful

<Diana> Exactly, Host1. You can have all the toys you want but if you don't have the attitude, it don't work.

* Host1 loves imaginative toys, playfulness with toys, making toys sub to presence and act

<Guest19> Xanthe points that out very well in her work.

<Xanthe> Two ties and a belt...they have all the equipment they require <G>

<Kass> Collars and whips and Violet Wands and such are a bit much for me, and tend to actually turn me off.

<Guest4> It don't mean a thing if you ain't got that swing

<Guest19> The attitude is all with Skinner a lot of the time.

<Diana> Swings are good <BG>

<Guest17> Rabit eared vibrators that rotate and have little balls inside

<Guest4> Sorry I don't now where that came from

<Guest3> ROFL

<Kass> But, and I say this with clear knowledge that I've got a different mindset, if there's real pain involved, that's not BD.

<Kass> And I'm not an S&M fan.

<Guest19> KASS: I can agree completely there!

<Host2> Define real pain, Kass

<Host1> Kass, not if the pain is being asked for imo

<Kass> That's a personal thing, I agree.

<Kass> But then we're into S&M, imho.

<Guest19> Pain is Pain. You'll know it, believe me.

<Guest1> Kass, there are people who like pain... it's a part of BDSM, too.

<Kass> I'm perfectly willing to grant that, Guest1, but it's not my thing.

<Xanthe> The pain/pleasure overlap is part of what it's about for some people

<Kass> And it squicks me badly.

<Xanthe> They respond to the pain as if it's pleasure

<Griff> yeah, and that's one big thing about what we lump as "BDSM" - it can mean so many different things to different people!

<Kass> But then, you have to remember how I grew up.

<Host1> True Guest19. And there's pain that leaps you out of your shoes and you feel great

<Diana> Pain is a real squick for me, too.

<Kass> And I am not wired to find pain pleasurable either mentally or physically.

<Guest5> nor am I

<Kass> Hey, if it melts someone else's butter, that's great.

<Guest19> I have to agree with KASS here I guess.

<Kass> I certainly am not going to try and define what it is for everyone.

<Guest1> Sorry, Kass, I hadn't read properly... thought you generalized it.

<Griff> I kind of like differentiating some by thinking in terms of folks who are more D/s, and others who are more into the S&M side.

<Kass> Nope.

<Kass> For me, I said.

<Guest19> But if it's your thing - the pain deal I'm not the one to criticize by any means

<Kass> That goes into S&M for me.

<Kass> And that goes beyond squick for me.

<Guest4> me neither. I tend to associate pain with sinues and asthmas and all that not fun stuff

<Guest6> Pain you can deal with. I think emotional torture is far worse.

<Kass> I tend to associate pain with beatings, thank you.

<Host2> So, in your mind, if someone gives someone a spanking with a belt, that is SM?

<Guest19> ROFL Guest4 yes! And with Mulder's nose - Yikes!

<Guest5> which is the way that most in the bdsm community do it griff... D/sers, B/Ders and S/Mers.

<Guest1> To eawch his/her own - I don't like pain, either, just inflict it for the willing.

<Diana> I liked the way Xanthe handled the pain issue in Subterfuge, though.

<Kass> Borderline, Host2

<Kass> I mean, you are talking to the woman who wrote Out of the Dark and Training of P.

<Xanthe> Thanks Diana

<Guest3> So did I, Diana

<Kass> But it's very, very borderline.

<Guest19> S&M is when you take a razor and cut someones nipple...

<Guest19> because they like it.

<Guest17> Actual pain that goes beyond discomfort squcks me

<Griff> so, I think when some people try out a "BDSM" story for the first time, and may get turned off or bored by it because it's one way or the other, it's a shame they often think they don't like *any* BDSM.

<Guest19> And beg you to do it...

<Guest19> because they'll come.

<Guest8> Guest19 that's bloodsport

<Kass> S&M is when you leave little pale scars from a whip, to me.

<Guest19> Guest8 - for some people...

<Guest5> it's also the whips and floggings

<Guest19> that's sexual expression.

<Diana> Guest19, that's edge play, not regular SM

<Guest13> Guest19, that's not bdsm for me

<Kass> Yes, I cannot personally deal with whips, canes or floggings.

<Guest19> I know that, yes

<Xanthe> It's all semantics.

<Guest8> frod s and m has several elements to it.

<Griff> It's a whole world, all kinds of preferences within it.

<Guest19> Exactly Xanthe

<Kass> Exactly, Griff.

* Host1 thinks that this pain issue is very complex, so many different kind of pains that are either squicks or pleasures for the singleminded. It's hard to come to one consens

<Kass> I'm talking only about my definitions.

<Guest19> Good point griff

<Guest13> when blood is involved, it crosses the line to abuse for me

<Kass> I can't define your definitions or yours or yours.

<Guest19> I think people tend to forget that point.

<Diana> Pain is a very personal issue.

<Guest8> bloodsport, edgeplay and scat are all elements of sm. but not he same thing

<Guest19> Good point Diana

<Guest19> and yes, Guest8, I know that as well.

<Kass> One of the things that turns me off most BDSM fic, especially XF fic, is that humilation and pain seem to play large roles.

<Guest15> some people find release through pain and some just find pain...

<Griff> but, the issue might be, does the person *want* it, and not because of some unhealthy mindset? To me, that's the difference in abuse and eroticism.

* Guest5 nods emphatically to Kass -- I just can't see Mulder into pain

<Guest19> Everything we are talking about here...

<Host1> Guest15, yes.

<Guest19> are things that take place between two consenting adults...

<Kass> And while I would never try and say that those stories aren't BDSM or that they don't belong, they are turn me right off.

<Guest19> who agree on what will take place...

* Kass nods at Guest19.

<Guest17> I would never say it's wrong, I ust can't find it sexy

<Host1> Guest19e - exactly - that makes it all consensual

<Kass> Oh, lord, Guest19, you just opened a huge can of worms.

<Guest1> That's the major point, Guest19... it's consensual.

* Kass nods at Guest17

<Guest19> Exactly!

<Kass> Not at all, frankly.

<Kass> I can't read it.

<Griff> okay, this kind of takes us to another question: How do people feel about non-consensual stuff in what might be classified as BDSM slash?

<Kass> But we're all wired a little differently, so chacun a son gout

<Guest19> If any act isn't consensual it's rape IMHO

<Diana> It's got to be consensual or it's something else entirely.

<Guest19> and that's a whole different thing.

<Xanthe> Absolutely.

<Guest5> definitely

<Guest17> Noncon is rape

<Guest3> No consent=Rape

<Host1> agreed

<Guest13> agreed, diana

<Guest12> Agreed Guest19.

<Guest15> no question

<Guest1> Yep.

<Guest19> Good deal!

<Guest5> and then the trust is lost. it's not bdsm anymore

<Guest3> None whatsoever

<Kass> Wait, wait, wait.

<Xanthe> But rape stories abound far more than BDSM ones.

<Guest4> Well what about manipulated consent

<Guest19> Good point Guest5

<Kass> I want to say one thing about this.

<Griff> some storeis walk a fine line, where it's not clear if it's consensual, or if it's a game feigning non-consensual activity.

<Kass> Realistic rape stories versus fantasy rape are, imho, two different things.

<Guest6> I did manipulated consent and got slain for it.

<Guest8> Safe, Sane, and consensual is the bdsm communitie's slogan for the 90s

<Guest19> Rape in a story can take place - but it's not BDSM IMHO

<Diana> Rape and BDSM are two different things.

<Kass> Oh, tell me. Training of P was allegedly ripped apart.

<Guest19> Has nothing to do with it.

<Guest3> Exactly

<Guest5> true Kass. they are different

<Guest17> How could there ever be trust again with manipulated consent?

<Kass> But it should be clear that from start to finish Training of P is purely fantasy noncon, an homage to Anne Rice

<Griff> I saw another story recently, I can't remember the name, but I heard it got a lot of flack for being seen as non-con.

* Guest5 didn't see the training of P as noncon

<Guest15> rape is about forced control... not given ... even if it is manipulated it is forced

<Kass> It's so out there it's not even close to realistic.

<Guest19> Because manipulated consent doesn't really exist perhaps?

<Kass> Rape isn't even about sex, it's about assault.

<Xanthe> Rape squicks me completely if it's used to titillate. Consensual BDSM is just another form of sex play.

<Host2> Which takes me to my concern. Theauthor may have in their mind that the act is consenual but if that's not relayed in the story, how does the reader interpret?

<Diana> Oh, manipulated consent exists.

<Guest3> Blackmail is a form of manipulation...

<Guest3> And the consent would not be true consent.

<Guest17> Some people are master manipulators

<Griff> yeah, HOST2 - IMO, that's what happened with the story I'm thinking of. Sorry I can't remember the title...

<Guest19> I get what you're saying Guest3, Diana. yes.

<Kass> Okay......I'm writing something right now and two readers have been squicked at what they saw as rape.

<Guest1> I can read "manipulated"... it's a story... as a movie is just a movie, a game within a game, sort of.

<Kass> Which means, in my mind, that I don't have that scene set up correctly in the pov.

<Kass> Because it's not rape.

<Guest6> What if the manipulation was unintentional?

<Griff> it was one where Sk had K in a BDSM club, and at the end brings M in...IMO it was an intense scene of non-con that was really something K wanted.

<Xanthe> I find consensual BDSm stories fine. I *hate* stories where there's a rape and the person being raped enjoys it.

<Host2> Manipulation in my mind implys intent

<Guest3> Me too!

* Kass nods at Xanthe.

<Guest19> Good point Xanthe

<Guest6> No one enjoys being raped.

<Guest19> I can't read that either.

<Guest17> I can't see SKinner ever doing noncon

<Diana> Good point, Guest6. We all come in with our own baggage and one party may not see it as manipulation.

<Guest19> It makes me puke.

<Kass> Remember all the seventies romance stories that showed the heroine falling in love with their rapists?

<Guest4> Or just pushing the right buttons. Possible scenario: Skinner knows about the guilt that Mulder carries and maneuvers him so that SKinner will punish him

<Guest19> No kidding Guest6

<Xanthe> Skinner would NEVER do noncon

<Guest3> I hated those Kass

<Xanthe> Never ever

<Guest15> I never could stand those

<Griff> YES, Diana! Exactly. I see a lot of readers seeing more than what the author intended.

<Guest8> what happened to the iron-clad bdsm custom of negotiation?

<Kass> I hated them, too. It used to make me furious just to see them in the grocery store bookracks.

<Guest4> Oh yes, Kass and the soaps did a number of those as well <ick., <ick> ick>

<Guest19> I don't see Skinner as a rapist at all.

<Guest19> Ugh.

<Guest3> Nods at Kass

<Xanthe> Whereas a serious rape story about the psychological effect on the victim can be moving.

<Kass> Oh, God, yes! I forgot, the famous Luke and Laura dynamic.

<Kass> Nope, I don't eitehr, Guest19.

<Host2> I really like the negotioation scenes Guest8.

<Guest17> Agreed Xanthe

<Guest19> Good point Xanthe

<Guest3> Me neither Guest19

<Kass> If it's done right. Most rape stories involved Mulder actually infantilize him.

<Griff> They don't see the clues the author leaves that it's a *scene* they're playing, and the reader's issues see it as non-con, IMO

<Kass> And that makes me insane.

<Guest8> in rl if it's not negotiated it can't be completely consesual

<Guest19> I wrote Skinner being raped and the consequences.

<Kass> Sometimes, Griffie.

<Guest3> Agree Xanthe

<Guest19> How he dealt with it.

<Griff> yeah, sometimes

<Kass> Archive X used to have some good links dealing with men and rape.

<Guest19> I think they still do, KASS

<Guest1> Guest19, what's the title of it?

<Griff> are those down now? I went and read through them a couple of months ago - good info.

<Guest19> On my web site...

<Guest3> Big Man With A Big Gun.

<Guest3> Right?

<Guest19> No...hang on...

<Guest3> Sorry.

<Guest19> "Fortissimo into Creschendo"

<Guest7> Rape is such a cliche in the media, tv, etc. In so many cases it's just used as a plot twist cause the writer's can't think of anything else. That gets to be a problem in fanfic as well, IMO.

<Guest6> I think the confusion for some is that rape is a power issue and all.

<Guest1> Thanks

<Kass> But it's violence, not sexual, and I think that's where things get skewed.

<Xanthe> Yes Guest6

<Guest3> I remember the story even if I didn't get the title right, lol

<Xanthe> That's a good point.

<Guest6> Exactly!

<Guest19> Good point Guest6

<Guest3> True , it IS about violence

<Guest3> And power

<Xanthe> Game playing a negotiated consensual "rape" scene with someone you trust is very different.

<Guest19> I notice there isn't much written about...

<Guest3> Not about sex

<Guest17> It seems like a lot of the I-love-my-rapist stories are by very yoing authors

<Guest17> young

<Diana> VERY young authors.

<Guest19> rape consequences as much.

<Guest6> Rape is more than a violation of the body. It invades every aspect of you.

<Griff> Guest17, I think I see that, too

<Kass> <nodding>

<Guest17> It's scary, IMO

<Guest3> I agree...

<Guest19> right Guest6

<Guest5> and mind.. :<

<Kass> You know, Guest17, that's a good point. Some rape stories are about being guiltless of the crime of having sex. <wry smile>

<Guest3> No responsibility

<Guest1> Very good, Guest6... I want to see it set apart from the topic "BDSM stories", it has nothing to do with it.

<Kass> Amen, Guest1.

<Diana> Being "forced to" so you don't have to make a decision - that's what the 70's books were about. Yuck.

<Guest17> I think so, KASS

<Guest19> Yes!

<Kass> Yes, I agree Diana. Bleh.

<Guest17> Like, if I'm forced, then my dad can't be mad at me. Yuck!

<Kass> That way you're guiltless, even if you enjoy it. Except that rape is violence, not a good lay.

<Guest6> That makes the rapist doing his victim a 'favor'.

<Kass> <shuddering>

<Kass> "She asked for it"

<Guest3> Dear god

<Guest4> Yep, Bleah. Take responsibility for your own sexuality

<Guest19> Ugh! Big time shudder

<Kass> "She wanted it"

* Guest5 shudders

<Kass> Or, in this case, "He"

<Guest17> But most 14 year old, I sincerely hope, don't know the difference between a good lay and rape

<Guest5> now there's a squick topic

<Guest1> Gothic fantasies....

<Guest19> He - now that is interesting...

<Kass> Jeez, I hope so, I have a 14 year old.

<Guest19> Don't you all think women can assualt men?

<Kass> Sure.

<Guest19> I mean you don't see much of it in fan fic.

<Guest15> Of course

<Guest6> Eleven year olds don't even know what a lay is.

<Guest5> of course Guest19

<Kass> But it's less common.

<Guest13> sure they can

<Guest3> Of course they can

<Kass> Simply because of muscle density. <g>

<Guest4> And power of authorities figures on young minds

<Guest7> Don't kid yourself, Guest6.

<Kass> But it can happen and has happened.

<Guest1> they can.

<Kass> Really, Guest6.

<Guest13> just dope a guy's drink with Rohypnol and tie him to the bed

<Kass> I have conversations with the 14 yr old all the time.

<Guest17> I saw an ep of some show a loooong time ago where these two huge (fat) women raped a guy. I think ot was Too Close for Comfort. A comedy. egads

<Kass> Exactly, Guest13.

<Kass> Good god.

<Host1> Most of the time they speak of "seduction" then, don't they ?

<Kass> And it was played as a joke?

<Guest17> Oh yes!

<Guest11> Good plan Guest13. <snerk>

<Kass> Well, I think it happens and I think the rationalization society uses is, "What is he complaining about, he got laid, didn't he?"

<Guest4> And of course the man was proably the object of derision

<Guest19> I tend to think it wouldn't be much of a joke. Ugh.

<Guest3> Bleah

<Guest4> Or what a wuss

<Guest3> Sounds godawful.

<Diana> Which is why guys seldom report rape.

<Guest19> Good point KASS

<Kass> Actually, I think The Garden District Murders actually used that one.

<Guest17> I think it was that Bullock guy got held down by the fat ladies and screwed. I think he liked it in the end

<Kass> And did a good job with it, too.

<Guest19> And the guy may say that to himself too.

* Guest17 sighs

<Kass> Showing the sense that Mulder had that he'd been violated.

<Guest19> Right Diana

<Host1> New Question 4 Kass: what did Skinner do to Frohike after he found out who sent Mulder to the island?

* Kass laughs

<Guest1> There was a movie out not too long ago, with Michael Douglas and Demi More. Can't remember the tilte.

<Kass> Oh, I know the one you mean......

<Guest3> The sexual harrassment one

<Guest19> Right, Guest1 and Guest3. I can't remember the title either.

<Guest1> Yep... where a man was the victim.

<Kass> Well, if I recall correctly, Skinner decided to let Frohike live after much thought and the grudging knowledge that Frohike had helped Mulder on other issues.

<Guest12> Wasn't that "Disclosure"

<Guest3> But didn't squash him like a bug

<Guest17> The tagline was something to the effect of Sex is Power

<Kass> But he kept the option open later of shooting him.

<Guest4> Not even scare him a bit?

<Guest3> LOL

<Guest17> Fro might like that too much

<Griff> Kass, hadn't you wanted to go more into the thing with Frohike? I thought I remember you saying that once.

<Guest19> Sex is Power - now that is an interesting ad campaign

<Kass> ACtually, I had a scene where Scully shows up and does a virtual pistol whipping on Frohike.

<Kass> <g>

<Guest19> Xanthe - does that speak to BDSM?

<Guest4> Did Mulder ever tell Frohke what happen

<Kass> But didn't write it.

<Guest19> Sex is Power

<Guest19> I mean

<Kass> Nope, he didn't.

<Guest3> Xanthe had to leave for just a few moments

<Kass> Hell, no, remember Mulder's mindset after he returned from the island.

<Guest4> Oooh, I would have loved to have seen that

<Guest19> Ah

<Guest19> OK

<Diana> I can see Scully doing that.

<Kass> This speaks to Guest19's comment about male rape.....Mulder convinces himself that nothing bad had happened, that it was just an adventure on the edge.

<Kass> But it didn't fit in with the timing of the story, had to drop it.

<Guest6> So, if the guy comes, it isn't rape?

<Kass> I think that's the rationale, frankly.

<Guest13> Guest6: no

<Kass> But given male physiology, that's a shitty rationale.

<Guest19> Screw that idea! Sorry.

<Guest3> But bodoies can lie.

<Guest15> Then if the girl comes it isn't rape either.... sorry it doesn't work that way

<Guest3> bodies

<Guest13> coming doesn't have to do with the sex act, it still can be rape

<Guest3> Exactly Guest15

<Guest17> Physiology is not phsychology

<Kass> Yes, thanks, exactly my point. Mulder was raped, but he turned it around in his head to be able to rationalize it.

<Kass> Exactly!

<Kass> That was the whole point to the story, essentially.

<Guest6> That's my point. It's Intent v. Perception.

<Kass> And the core of Skinner's guilt when he takes over.

<Guest19> You will try to rationalize it but you can't in the end

<Diana> Which happens a lot in these cases.

<Guest11> That is such a powerful story, thank you KASS.

<Guest4> You had a nice point in Out of the Dark, is that Mulder is used to profiling monster so that he was unable to cope with the fact he got caught by one.

<Kass> Does Mulder, in fact, have the psychological ability to deny consent or give it at that point? Or has he brainwashed himself, with a lot of help from Alex and Max, to destroy his ability to consent.

<Kass> Yes, exactly. He had to deny that he'd been caught for a long time, because that would have undermined one of his self-identification point.

<Guest19> On one level you can deny it but...

<Kass> I can't see Mulder ever willingly giving himself to a Max or Alex Hoffman, but I can see him slowly being.....Moonified, so to speak.

<Guest19> your subconsious won't let you forever...

<Kass> Lack of sleep, lack of food.

<Guest19> it has a way of crucifying you eventually.

<Guest11> I had the feeling that at least subliminally he knew there was no consent.

<Kass> Remember what Skinner thinks about? That's one of the classic cult techniques.

<Guest6> Frog legged, if you'll pardon the expression

<Guest4> And prhaps one of the few things about himself he was proud of

<Kass> Exactly, Guest4.

<Guest3> Yes.

<Griff> NEW TOPIC: An author said sh get a lot of people who look down on BDSM stuff a bit. They ask for more schmoop or more angst as if BDSM is a *bad* kink, yet it gets more readers. Are readers of BDSM sometimes afraid to feedback because they're scared of admitting their kink?

<Kass> Hell, no. I got TONS of feedback for Out of the Dark, I had people writing to ask me if I was a domme.

<Guest17> Liking to read it doesn't mean you like to do it, IMO

<Guest3> I think readers are afraid in GENERAL to feedback...

<Guest4> Do you think that by the end of out of the Dark, that M/Sk was a BDSM relationship

<Guest3> and it must be even harder.

<Guest4> Or just lazy <hanging head in shame>

<Guest6> Not me, Guest3, as some of you are painfully aware.

<Guest19> Good point Guest3

<Kass> No, Guest4, I don't.

<Guest19> that's more to the point actually.

<Diana> I get a lot of positive feedback on "Chains" - very few flames, but I have substantial warnings.

<Guest3> Yes, lol!

<Guest5> well I feedback bdsm stories on my yahoo account *grin*

* griff{LZ} raises hand to being lazy, and just not reading all that much

<Guest19> that's the kind of letters I get all the time.

<Host2> I wouldn't feedback in the beginning. Was afraid of saying a liked something that was so far out omy own experience. I've gotten much better lately, with the help of some friends ;)

<Xanthe> I get lots of letters asking if I "Lifestyle" BDSM

<Guest3> Really more shmoop?

<Guest19> I get some sad letters...

<Guest7> The relationship in "Chains" is so loving, I can't imagine anyone taking offense!

<Kass> Yup.

<Guest19> from women who say...

<Host1> No problem with admitting my kink - but bad feedback on feedback makes you think twice

<Guest3> I think a lot of people are afraid of the authors.

<Guest19> I read fic and my husband/boyfriend...

<Xanthe> LOL Guest3!!!!

<Griff> I love getting feedback from RL players, giving me tips, etc.

<Guest19> thinks I'm nuts or perverted or whatever

<Xanthe> WHY?!!!!

<Guest5> yes Guest3 you're right actually

<Guest3> Really Guest19?

<Guest3> They are!

<Guest19> Yes Guest3 - it's true

<Guest17> That is sad Guest19

<Guest19> yes

<Guest4> What if you say something negative they';; get out the whips?

<Guest19> It is sad

<Kass> <nodding>

<Xanthe> More scared of BDSM authors than schmoop authors??

<Guest19> I had one woman who wrote me...

<Guest3> They're always surprised to find out I don't bite.

<Guest3> Or drool.

<Guest19> and said her husband forbid her to read the fic.

<Guest6> Guest3, you liar. You do!

<Guest11> I was terrified to write my first LoC, but never about admitting BDSM preferences. ;)

<Guest19> So she snuck around and read it.

<Guest5> nope. just some authors seem less approachable than others

<Guest17> There can be a feeling that the authoirs are the "cool poeple" and how dare I talk to them.

<Guest3> Shhhh.

<Guest19> How sad is that?

<Guest3> How sad Guest19!

<Xanthe> That's awful Guest17

<Xanthe> I hate that sort of hierachy nonsense.

<Kass> Oh, yes, Guest17, and that really floors me.

<Guest3> Right Guest17.

<Guest7> My husband thinks I'm insane, but he'd never try to censor my reading habits. Knows better.

<Griff> Guest5, how do you see some authors as less approachable?

<Guest19> I always try to answer my mail as a result

<Guest3> LOL

<Diana> Most writers I know are great people and love feedback and respond back.

<Kass> I'm always like, don't be silly, I'm just a real person who puts my panties on one leg at a time.

<Griff> what tips you off or makes you suspect that?

<Guest19> because some of those people have to be really at a low point...

<Kass> And I try always to write back at least a short note on feedback.

<Guest19> if their sexual outlet is a story instead of the man they are sleeping next to at night.

<Guest4> IAnd they are other SO who while they don't get slash, let alone bdsm, put appreciate the "ah' affect. "Honey, come here"

<Guest19> Sigh.

<Xanthe> I always reply to feedback

<Griff> IOW, how do we advertise for feedback/not scare folks off<g>?

<Xanthe> I think the tone of my website shows I'm responsive to people.

<Griff> I never once didn't answer a feedback in detail.

<Kass> Well, I have evidently gotten a rep as someone approachable.

<Guest4> Yes you do Xanthe.

<Griff> yes, it does, Xanthe.

<Kass> Because I get some lovely notes.

<Guest5> well partly cause they've written stories that were so good, and partly because as a non-author it's intimidating, and partly cause when you send feedback to someone and get no response back, you are afraid to do it again

<Guest19> My web site kind of approachable - yes.

<Guest19> That helps

<Kass> Well, I can relate, Guest5.

<Guest19> I talk about my wife for one thing. ROFL.

<Griff> I think it's also becuase you guys are just really good writers

<Guest17> I got a really nice note one time--incredibly sweet--and it was an AOLer who had non-AOLers blocked. <sigh>

<Guest15> You have to also take into consideration how they act on newsgroups as well (some authors are not so nice and that can turn you off as well to send feedback)

<Kass> Because the first feedback I wrote was to Goo and Amperage and I never heard back.

<Kass> Guest15, people hate me on the newsgroup. <g>

<Guest19> Good point Guest15

<Kass> But my readers and I have some great correspondence.

<Kass> <g>

<Guest15> And I'm a procrastinator at heart....

<Guest3> I suppose.

<Guest19> I think that's a crock too

<Guest4> So do I. Feedback is great, and I always write thank notes

<Guest15> Depends on who hates you....

<Kass> I think mailing lists are a better indicator of author behavior than newsgroup.

<Guest3> Me too.

<Guest19> Being on a damn pedestal

<Kass> nobody who bothers me, Guest15. <g>

<Guest19> Screw that idea

<Guest6> The writers I write to turned into great friends.

<Guest15> That too.